Define Doodle Shedding.....

[Jennifer Tramell]

Hi everyone!  I haven't posted in a long time, but I still keep an eye on what is happening on DK.  The recent discussion about the f1b pup Chance and his shedding has started me thinking.

 

How do you define shedding?  I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but I am constantly approached by people who comment on my dogs and say "and they don't shed, do they?".  At this question, warning bells go off in my head.  How do I answer this, I do not want to mislead anyone.

 

My dogs are f2 and multi-gen (still 50/50) curly coated goldendoodles.  In my opinion, they don't shed BUT maybe some people would consider them as shedding.  When people ask me, I always say, "In my opinion, they don't shed enough for me to consider them as shedding; HOWEVER, I do find "doodle tumbleweeds" in the corner and along baseboards every couple days". 

 

Is there a consensus of what is considered shedding or non-shedding?  Do "non-shedding" dogs leave hair around?  I would think that all animals need to lose dead hair for new hair growth - I know I do.

 

 Here is how I break down my dogs shedding:

 

Hair seen on clothes?  No

Hair seen on furniture?  No

Hair seen on car seats?  No

Hair come off in the dog brush?  Yes for Webster, Very little for Charlotte

Hair on floor?  Yes, doodle tumbleweeds sometimes blow out from under the furniture or hide in corners, however, I don't brush my dogs frequently - I bet increased brushing would reduce the tumbleweeds.

 

I guess if I ranked my dogs on a scale of 0-5, with each category being 1 point, Webster would be 2 out of 5, Charlotte would be 1 out of 5.

 

Any thoughts?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

My poodles did not shed. No tumbleweeds, no hair on the floor ever. A tiny little bit of fluff in the brush occasionally. After my last poodle died, I looked for a bit of hair in her bush to save, and couldn't get anything. They would be a 0 on your scale.

I don't need to lose dead hair for new growth. My hair still grows pretty rapidly, even at my age. Yes, I do have hairs in my brush, way more than my poodles did. The difference is that it's individual hairs that have been tugged loose. 

Jack sheds, period. All day, every day. If he shakes himself in sunlight, you can see the hairs flying off him. There is hair on every surface of my home, under tables and sofas, etc. After a grooming and a good going over with the Furminator, there's less for a couple of days. He is a 5 on your scale.

However, IMO all that is beside the point. The answer to the question   "and they don't shed, do they?" is "Some do, some don't. They are mixed breed dogs and there is no consistency. If shedding would be a major problem for you, do not get a doodle. Get a purebred who consistently doesn't shed."

Truly, this is the kindest thing you can do for the person and the dog, and one way to keep more doodles out of rescues and shelters.

You never do any breed a favor by encouraging people to get one.

 

[Carol and Banjo]

Very well said Karen.....That's just what I tell folks who comment about the "No Shedding".   I also caution them to be wary of any Breeder who tells them their Doodles don't shed.   

Banjo is what I'd consider a medium shedder.   When brushed, the brush is full of hairs.  I do find some hair on the furniture and in our cars.   And if I'm wearing dark colors and have been having a real snugglefest with Banjo...it'll show up some...but nothing a quick swipe of a lint brush won't take care of.

[Jennifer Tramell]

Thanks for the info - I was wondering about poodle hair. 

Just to be clear, I always tell people that goldendoodles are a MIXED breed and one of the parent breeds are high shedders, therefore, there is always the possibility of any level of shedding, from the high retriever shedding to the low/no poodle shedding (I try to downplay the "non shedding").  I make it clear that my answer about my dogs shedding is specific to my dogs & can't be applied to other doodles.

I get bothered by breeders who advertise "Non Shedding & Hypoallergenic Coats".......I don't want to call them liars, but I feel as though they are misrepresenting a possibility as a surety.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

You are so tactful, Jennifer! "Misrepresenting" is a good word. I get bothered by that, too, along with "hybrid vigor", lol.

[Ginny Nightingale]

You said a mouthful!! That bugs me too!!! And recently someone on another forum told me i was full if you-know-what when i said that even ALDs might shed a bit--they said that NO ALDs ever shed--c'mon, really???

[F, Calla & Luca]

See what happens when you go to other forums?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Oh, and poodles don't "blow their puppy coats" either. Their hair gets thicker and coarser as they grow up, just like human's hair, but the puppy coat doesn't fall out.

Poodle-y curly non-shedding coats have what is called incomplete dominance. This means that if you mix a shedding with a non-shedding breed (as in the F1 doodles) and the offspring do get the dominant gene for nonshedding, their coats will still not be as thick, coarse, or completely non-shedding as the parents'. Over many generations, (ALDs, multigens) or when you introduce the purebred non-shedding coat on both sides of the family (F1B), you may get it.

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

I tell people that some doodles shed, some don't.  Peri sheds "a little" - I may find a tumble weed in the corner. And when it is super hot out and her hair is longer, she can shake and we might find a hair or two. But overall, I expected her to shed MUCH more being an F1. Her doggy bed is dark brown microsuede and there might be a hair or two on it.

[F, Calla & Luca]

The human hair growth cycle, and I think dogs' hair growth is similar, ends with the shedding of a hair and eventually a new hair. The length of these phases differs and whether they are all at the same time as when some breeds go through seasonal coat change. So eventually, even poodles shed their hairs. It's the timing and amount that makes the difference. Hair in the brush is not shedding I think.

" For humans:

Hair Structure and Hair Life Cycle

Hair Stucture

Hair is composed of strong structural protein called keratin. This is the same kind of protein that makes up the nails and the outer layer of skin.

Each strand of hair consists of three layers.

1. An innermost layer or medulla which is only present in large thick hairs.
2. The middle layer known as the cortex. The cortex provides strength and both the color and the texture of hair.
3. The outermost layer is known as the cuticle. The cuticle is thin and colorless and serves as a protector of the cortex.

Structure of the hair root

Below the surface of the skin is the hair root, which is enclosed within a hair follicle. At the base of the hair follicle is the dermal papilla. The dermal papilla is feed by the bloodstream which carries nourishment to produce new hair. The dermal papilla is a structure very important to hairgrowth because it contains receptors for male hormones and androgens. Androgens regulate hairgrowth and in scalp hair Androgens may cause the hair follicle to get progressively smaller and the hairs to become finer in individuals who are genetically predisposed to this type of hair loss.

The Hair Growth Cycle

Hair follicles grow in repeated cycles. One cycle can be broken down into three phases.

1. Anagen - Growth Phase
2. Catagen - Transitional phase
3. Telogen - Resting Phase

Each hair passes through the phases independent of the neighboring hairs.

Anagen Phase - Growth Phase

Approximately 85% of all hairs are in the growing phase at any one time. The Anagen phase or growth phase can vary from two to six years. Hair grows approximately 10cm per year and any individual hair is unlikely to grow more than one meter long.

Catagen Phase - transitional phase

At the end of the Anagen phase the hairs enters into a Catagen phase which lasts about one or two weeks, during the Catagen phase the hair follicle shrinks to about 1/6 of the normal length. The lower part is destroyed and the dermal papilla breaks away to rest below.

Telogen Phase - resting phase

The resting phase follows the catagen phase and normally lasts about 5-6 weeks. During this time the hair does not grow but stays attached to the follicle while the dermal papilla stays in a resting phase below. Approximately 10-15 percent of all hairs are in this phase at an one time.

At the end of the Telogen phase the hair follicle re-enters the Anagen phase. The dermal papilla and the base of the follicle join together again and a new hair begins to form. If the old hair has not already been shed the new hair pushes the old one out and the growth cycle starts all over again."

For dogs:

"Hair growth and loss in dogs is cyclical. There are three stages in the hair growth cycle:

• Anagen stage. This is where the hair goes through a period of growth. There is growth in the hair roots which increases hair shaft.
• Catagen stage. This is a temporary phase prior to the next stage beginning.
• Telogen stage. This refers to the phase where the hair cycle is resting. In more cases than not, Telogen is the main phase."

[Deanna & Desi & Cori]

Well, now I know - my hair must not have a medulla!  I have (and always have had) baby fine hair.  I guess the only medulla I have are in those occasional pesky chin hairs that started showing up a few years ago.  Lucky me!!!  And to make matters worse, my dermal papilla don't seem to be too receptive.  Maybe I should send them to "finishing school" to make them more open and friendly to androgens!  Ha Ha!! 

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Sadly, my hair is baby fine also and I passed this on to two of my three children....

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Here's what is not clear to me about the differences between dog's hair and human's hair, then, and this also applies to shedding dogs versus non shedding dogs.

Human's hair keeps growing in length. We've all seen those pictures of people with hair down to their knees and lower. Waist length hair is also not uncommon. We all have to get haircuts regularly to keep our hair at a particular length.

This is true of poodles and other non-shedding dogs, too. They must get regular haircuts or the hair continues to get longer, and ends up matting badly. Think about Yorkshire terriers, Maltese, and other dogs with straighter non-shedding coats than poodles. Their hair sweeps the floor, and that's even with regular cutting.

Now, let's take dogs that shed. Labs and Goldens, are good examples. Even longhaired shedding breeds like Collies. They never need a haircut to keep thei hair at the same length. It doesn't get longer. Jackdoodle is the same. He never gets a haircut, except around his face, and his hair never goes beyond the length it is. It sheds, but the new hair grows in to just that length and no longer, ever.

So what is the explanation for that?

I still say, nonshedding breeds' hair is more like humans in it's growth/loss patterns, and shedding breeds' hair is not. I realize the above article is based in fact, but it seems obvious to me that non-shedding hair (including ours) does not all fall out, but rather keeps growing, and shedding coats just fall out instead.