Early Spay and Neuter

[Kathy Wilson]

What are the pluses and minuses? I understand the practice for shelter animals, but why the others?

[Adina P]

I think the BIGGEST plus is simply population control...to me that is BIG plus whereas the minuses are 'possible' health complications, but none, to me seem all that likely. What I've read about the health consequences doesn't worry me a whole lot.

[Adina P]

The main articles that get tossed around are these:
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
and to the above there is a good rebuttal:
http://www.unleashyourself.biz/documents/zinkrebuttalearlyspaynuete...

Here are some past discussions with some useful info:

http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/early-spayneuter-vs-waiting

http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/to-owners-of-doodles-who-were

http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/to-breeders-in-regards-to-esn

http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/spayed-too-early

[Kathy Wilson]

Good links. I am very much in favor of the practice for shelter animals. What I would like to know is have any of you who are breeders ever had a situation in which a pup you sold as a "pet" got bred? Is that why you (who do) believe in early spay and neutering? Thanks for great input.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

Hi Kathy. I have a puppy that was early spayed at 8 weeks old (right before she came to me.) I think the main reason the breeder does it is because it keeps people from stepping on her turf. A person can go ahead and breed and sell puppies even if they signed a spay/neuter contract. It would be very very easy to do without the breeder ever finding out - deep discount pets. I as a purchaser, however, did not have a problem with the breeder early spaying because it saves me having to do it and I had a dog that died of breast cancer that probably would not have gotten this cancer had she been spayed. This was all unbeknownst to me until at the time of her diagnosis the vet told me that breast cancer is a common hormone related cancer in dogs that would have been totally avoided had she not had the hormones.There was a lot I didnt know when I was young. Live and learn.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Kathy, I don't understand why you keep saying that you are in favor of early spay/neuter for shelter dogs. Very few shelter dogs are that young when they enter a shelter, so it is really a moot point.
Hundreds of us who are members here on DK have adopted "shelter" doodles who are every bit as healthy, happy, beautiful, and well-adjusted as any dog from a breeder...many of them are dogs from breeders who got dumped or rehomed. Anybody with two intact dogs can be a breeder, that doesn't mean the dogs they produce are any better or healthier than "shelter" dogs or that they should go on to produce their own litters.
Reg is right, spaying and neutering helps prevent many forms of cancer in dogs. Maybe the breeders do it so people will not breed their dogs indiscriminately, or maybe they do it because they are afraid the owners will not, and they want to make sure it is done.

[Kathy Wilson]

LOTS of puppies end up in shelters. Do a search, Karen, and you'll find them. I know a woman who adopted two kittens from a shelter and they were spayed at 4 weeks. I thought that was a bit much. It's not an easy issue for me as I don't think any dog or cat should be neutered before they turn 6 months. That said, shelters would find it impossible, I would imagine, to keep track of each animal they adopted out, hence early spay/neuter.
A question: why the attack? Having a bad day?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Kathy, I'm sorry if you felt my response was an attack; I don't see where in my response I attacked anyone. But it does seem that you are saying that shelter dogs need to be spayed/neutered to make sure that they don't reproduce, but any other dog from a breeder does not. I don't understand why you are making a distinction between a puppy from a breeder or a puppy from a shelter when it comes to issues of health and reproduction, and that is what I said.
I don't need to do a search to find puppies in shelters, lol. I am actively involved in doodle rescue, both as a registered volunteer with IDOG, and as an administrator of the DRRC,and have been involved in dog rescue for 12 years. I also own a rescued doodle. Very few doodle puppies enter private rescues or shelters...yes, there are raids on puppy mills, and doodle puppies ending up in county shelters, but the majority of doodles that come through IDOG RRR and the private shelters with which I have been involved are owner rehomes, unsold dogs dumped by irresponsible breeders, and strays. Many of these dogs are of equal or superior temperament, health, and appearance than a lot of the doodles belonging to members here. As far as keeping track of every animal adopted out, IDOG and every good private rescue or shelter in the country does just that. Many times a dog cannot be spayed/or neutered for health reasons prior to being adopted, and the owner must submit proof of it having been done within a specified time, or the dog is taken back. Sometimes a refundable deposit is required as well.
I understand asking about the pros and cons of early spay/neuter for dogs in general, but I don't understand, as I said, why you twice repeated that you understand it for shelter dogs but not for others? My dog came from a private shelter, but he was originally purchased from someone who called herself a breeder. Why would it be okay for him to have been neutered by the shelter, but questionable if his breeder had done it?

[Kathy Wilson]

Karen, the operative word is early. Neutering/spaying an adult dog would hardly qualify as early. The topic is early spay and neuter, thus, I really don't think I've been unclear. My next question was whether breeders had ever been deceived by a client(purchaser) and had them breed a dog that was sold as a pet. I thought it might be easier for a breeder to keep track of the puppies than would a shelter. Or not. Also, where do you get that I am insulting shelter dogs? I am not, nor do I infer any such thing.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Well, I guess we are misunderstanding each other, and will have to agree to disagree.
I don't know about kittens, but very few public shelters do any kind of neutering on dogs, early or not. Usually, the most they do is give a voucher for a local vet clinic. When we pull dogs from public shelters, we always have to have them neutered, it has not been done by the shelter, no matter what age the dog is. Private rescues & shelters vary on early neutering, but they have a spay/neuter clause in the adoption contract that must be adhered to.
As far as breeders being deceived, those good breeders who do not spay/neuter prior to selling the pups all have a clause in their purchase agreement that mandates the pup be spayed or neutered art the appropriate age. With purebred dogs, the registration papers are withheld until the proof of neutering is submitted. I don't know what the hybrid breeders do...perhaps this would be a good question for the Breeders' Group.

[Kathy Wilson]

I for one would only buy from a breeder who does NOT spay/neuter before I adopt the dog. I also want the dewclaws left alone. My question was did they ever get someone who ignored the contract. My two tonkinese cats had papers withheld until I had them neutered. I would NEVER breech a contract. Just wondered if there were breeders who had sold to someone who turned out to be unscrupulous.

[Adina P]

I think there have been some...but it is impossible for a breeder with 'only' a spay/neuter contract to answer 'No, none of the puppies I've sold have ever been bred against contract' unless she lived in the same town as all of them forever. It really is a nearly impossible negative to prove. Dogs don't need papers to be bred...an irresponsible person wouldn't be held back by lack of papers.

Personally I think ESN is a GOOD idea...but I am not against the lack of ESN. I just think it leaves room for a lot of error when it comes to population control and an unnoticeable amount of extra growth is no cause for concern. That's my view.

[Adina P]

P.S. If you do want to get more 'breeder' feedback I do HIGHLY recommend asking in the breeder forums. If I never gave you the links in the past...private message me and Ill give them to you again.