Early Spay and Neuter

[Kathy Wilson]

What are the pluses and minuses? I understand the practice for shelter animals, but why the others?

[Lynda Kamrath]

It's just a curiosity question, but why do you think no dog or cat should be neutered before 6 months? That, by the way, is what my vet says also.

[Kathy Wilson]

Development and my vets say so, too. That said, Lynne's argument is very compelling. So, I have more questions for the Doc.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

Ya it really doesnt make any sense because "shelter" animals started out as pets. It is not that they are strays like in countries like Mexico, where they try to gather them up and fix them to stop the population (this is new they usually gather them up and kill them). These unfixed shelter animals are probably the same ones that were sold with spay/neuter contracts and the agreement obviously wasnt adhered to. Another good reason for the breeder doing it before selling it.

[Kathy Wilson]

Made sense to me. If you wish to try to humiliate me.....enjoy the game. I don't get it, sorry....seems a bit mean-spirited to me. I've done nothing to deserve it.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

Kathy, I wasnt in any way, shape or form trying to humiliate you. I dont know where you perceived that but I am sorry you did. I was partaking in a conversation thats all. Please believe that in no way were any of my observations meant as something against Kathy Wilson.

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[Kathy Wilson]

One last thing to the two or three of you who think I have an issue with shelter dogs: I neglected to mention earlier that I grew up with shelter dogs, cats and a couple of ponies. It's been awhile since I've had a dog, so I didn't think to mention it.....perhaps since I never thought I'd need to defend myself in a thread that began in order that I could LEARN something!
#1 Lady, an Irish Setter. We had to have her put to sleep because she was given to us with distemper.
#2 Topper: a Pekingese
#3 Tanzer: an elderly boxer who died of an age-related stroke at 10 or 11.
#4 Sox, a cat who ran away.....sadly in the "olden" days, my parents thought cats belonged outdoors.
#5 Bebee: a cockapoo......great dog, except that she had a great talent for jumping up on men and 'nailing' them in the family jewels.
#6 Jessy: a collie/shephard mix.....had her until she was nearly 15. I had her put down due to severe hip displasia. She was a phenomenal companion and the first dog I trained myself. She rarely had to be on a leash as she'd walk beside us without wandering.
#7: Snoopy: a border collie that my dad got for my brother at a shelter in San Diego. Snoopy had been beaten with a two-by-four by a previous owner/monster and arrived with a ton of baggage. We learned about border collies the hard way, but we gave her a good home, even given that we had a ton to learn about this breed. We lost her to cancer.
#8 Ruby Louise Brown: a beautiful black long-haired 1/4 Siamese cat. This, sadly, is the cat I had to learn the hard way to keep cats indoors. She got an abscess from a fight that nearly killed her. I was a broke student at the time and fortunately found a wonderful vet who agreed to take time payments. I put a mattress on the floor and she slept under my armpit to keep warm. She went from 13 # down to 7# and back up again. She got well only to end up with chronic miliary dermatitis which had to be treated with prednisone every three months. I flea combed her 5 times a day minimum to make sure no fleas got to her. When she came down with pancreatitis, the vet said no more prednisone, so I doubled up on the combing even when there were no fleas so as to not take a chance. Sad thing is that it didn't take fleas to cause a flare up of the dermatitis. She had a second bout of pancreatitis and I was forced to let her go out of compassion. I buried her in my backyard with her favorite toy.
In 1990, for the FIRST time, my brother asked for a Burmese and we met a breeder who bred Tonks, a 1/2 Burmese, 1/2 Siamese cross (originally). This breeder was also heavily involved in rescue and gave us the choice of a rescue or of purchasing a kitten. We went home with two kittens, Ben and Jerry, named after the ice cream. We had Benny for 11 years before losing him to kidney failure. We treated it until it was no longer treatable. We still have Jerry and he will be 19 on July 1st (next week). I take him to the vet twice a week for his subcutaneous fluids. He's spoiled, as is his right, imho, and sleeps glued to my chest most nights. We adopted Billy 8 years ago...another Tonkinese because my dear mama demanded it and ya just don't say "no" to a 90 year old woman. ;) I had already picked out a shelter kitty.....a 4 year old huge white cat named Cooper, but mama said nope, she wanted another Tonk. Now, I want a dog and I want a labradoodle. In the next couple of years, I'll return to a shelter to adopt, but this time I've gone to a breeder who also 'owns' a shelter doodle who is great company to his female. I want this dog for companionship, to train with as a therapy team, and to provide puppies for Service dogs and Guide dogs.

Hope that settles the issue of shelter dogs. If not, I give up.

[April Cliber]

Wow, I almost didn't chime in because of all the drama, but what the heck.... Here's my honest feelings. Warning, it's late and I'm tired, I hope this makes sense. :o)

When I first started breeding I did not ESN for a few reasons. 1) I didn't have a vet near by that was experienced in ESN. 2) I was worried about all the "what ifs." 3) Taking a litter whole for ESN costs a lot of money. 4) I was worried that my pups wouldn't sell as well if I started doing it and made no exceptions.

Solution to problem #1 - Two years ago a new vet joined our local office. Roomer had it that he volunteered for years at shelters and had done thousands of ESN's. So... I asked, and it was true! He was thrilled that I was interested. They had to decide on a price because I was the first breeder to have a litter done. I was worried SICK the night before my first litter had surgery. All pups were sold and heaven forbid..... I couldn't even think about how bad I feel if something happened. Everything went fine and I was shocked at how quickly they recovered! (BTW my vet still volunteers at the shelter and also goes to Mexico once a year for a 5 day S/N clinic.)

Solution to problem #2- I did 6 months of research before deciding that the pros outweigh the cons.(IMO) After a couple of years I am happy to say that all pups have done just fine. IF something did happen at some point, I would feel horrible of course, but I am shouldering the responsibility. It would be my financial loss if a pup died. Obviously I am confident in my vets ability and the safety of the surgery.

Problem #3 Not really a problem, but the reality is that I do spend thousands of dollars every year on ESN. If I didn't ESN, I could sell pups for the same price, so it is a financial loss, but it's well worth it to me.

Problem #4 Ended up being a blessing! Since ESN, I never have a problem selling pups. Have I lost a few sales because of ESN? Sure, but there have always been more people that are fine with it. If someone has concerns about it, I always answer questions and take the time to make sure they are comfortable. My vet will also talk with families. What breeder would give up thousands of dollars a year that otherwise could have been profit? One who is genuinely in love with each pup an is concerned about the future of doodles. One who wants to make sure that none of their pups end up in a BYB program or worse a mill. Let me be clear, IN NO WAY am I tooting my own horn. I'm just one of many, many doodle breeders that ESN. In fact, the Australian Labradoodle breeders were ESN-ing before goldendoodle breeders. When was the last time you heard of a mill that ESN's pups? I'm not saying that all breeders who ESN are wonderful, but I am saying that there really is no other reason to ESN then for the benefit of the pup and the "breed" (I don't usually use that term when talking about doodles, because they are actually a "type", but you get my point.)

Someone asked if breeders ESN's because they are afraid that someone will purposely breed without them knowing. For me, that's not really it, although it does eliminate that risk. I'm more concerned with the accidents that happen. People get busy and can put off a spay for a month or two. Females can cycle as young as 7 months. Thousands of "accidents" end up in shelters and are killed every year. IF a responsible breeder (health testing, home raised etc) wants to buy a breeding dog, I don't have a problem with that. (Glass houses) I just think that if a breeder sells a intact dog it is their responsibility to make sure that dog isn't contributing to the already over crowded shelters.

ESN isn't all about the benefit of the breeder. Most of my families are thrilled that they never have to worry about having it done. They don't have to worry about recovery, cones and the risk.

[Kathy Wilson]

Thanks April, you made great sense, by the way. I appreciate the input tremendously.
Thanks again.
Kathy