Genetics a of red/apricot doodles

[jenn D]

Do we have any threads on where the red comes from in labradoodles? I remember someone saying it came from 1 or 2 distinctive poodle lines. I also recall discussing how because of this some reds can be a bit high Strung. Pickles is going through late adolescence (just over 1 year old) and he is really testing a lot lately. I know consistency is key but he is pretty strong willed. Just wondering how much is genetic related, age related, etc. as I'm pretty consistent with training across the board.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

All red poodles in North America (not apricots, which are a variation of cream, only the reds) are descended from just two lines. The gene pool is not very deep with the reds. And red poodles do have a reputation for having shall we say not the best temperaments; this is a common topic of discussion in most poodle breeders forums. "High strung" is a nice way to put it. ("The reds are crazy" is another way I've heard it put, lol.) That's all strictly anecdotal, though, there no scientific basis to it other than that it is a fact that the gene pool for the reds is very, very shallow.

However, in an ALD,  the red can come from cocker lines or other breeds involved in the original RM or TP lines, too. 

And red in a GD can of course come from the Retriever lines. 

[Crystal & Stella]

Not sure if my Stella is considered red or apricot but she is so calm. She's only 5.5 months though so I guess it could change lol 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I went back to do a little research on this topic and learned something very interesting. There is something called "Rage Syndrome", also known as "Red Rage Syndrome" because it's seen most often in red or golden cockers, in Cocker Spaniels. Here are links to a couple of articles: 

http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/rage_syndrome.htm

http://www.dogstuff.info/cocker_rage_syndrome.html

[Adina P]

It's really too bad because I SO love Red.  I like the darkest coats on golden retrievers and labradors and 'red' doodles.

Is Rosco considered red or apricot?

[F, Calla & Luca]

I think Rosco is not red or apricot because by labradoodle standards those colors have black noses. I'd say he is a gorgeous caramel. Luca is caramel but most of that coloring remains behind his knees and in a few other places.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I feel the same about Reds, Adina.  If Rosco is true red, he certainly got a mellow temperament.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

I read a lot into Cocker Rage syndrome at one time and...

I'm hoping Jenn does not see any of these symptoms in Pickles!  OMG! 

Cocker Rage is still a debated issue among veterinarians.  Many,at the time I was researching, thought it as a myth and many thought there was something, somewhere, along the lines from the first male Cocker Champion Stud.  Colors were mentioned a lot but always seemed to list different from the next article.    Your first link, from the Cocker Spaniel Club seemed to want to debunk the theory. Of course. 

My old research thought it in more solid color dogs, but never mentioned red. Interesting and I read a lot back then. 

It is a serious and awful syndrome or episode of 'seizure' (?) ( possibly ) that worsens where usually, the dogs are destroyed as there were no answers and no proven medical intervention, although some meds do help in some cases.  Horrible, Horrible situation from what I understand :( 

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

okay, it has been awhile.  Certainly the  information is still confusing

It has been reported that rage syndrome was found to be more common in red, golden/blonde or black cockers than in any other colour and specific lines tend to have a higher occurrence.^[5] All solid coloured cockers tend to be at higher risk than their multi-coloured counterparts, with darker colours being most affected. It is most often associated with the show lines of the breed although cases have been found in the working lines as well.^{[unreliable source?][6]} The colour of the dog may not actually be genetically related, but is more likely to reflect certain bloodlines. ..................

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_syndrome

JENN,

I think your post would be seriously worded differently if this has anything to do with Pickles.   I dont think this is your case at all  :)     But always interesting  to read 

Cocker Rage, in my understanding has a lot to do with dogs who suddenly lunge and viciously attack for no reason. No warning.  Odd, but will turn around the next minute and be loving and dont seem to remember the incident.  The attacks again, are very brutal and viscous.   The onset is an early age and progresses into a very dangerous and unpredictable dog.  You would have seen this behavior by now 

[jenn D]

Joanne,
Yes I completely agree. Pickles does not have discipline issues, he is just strong willed at times. He is a sweet dog, just not soft. I just like to think about if there is a connection between physical and mental attributes. It's an interesting topic in general. While I dont necessarily think that coat color an temperment are connected, if certain traits from parent dogs are past down and they include both coat and temperment quirks and the population size is small but consistent, that's when I start wondering.

[jenn D]

Thanks Karen. The reality is I just need to up the training for him and accept he is not a submissive temperment. I've said this before and I'll say it again, it's always best to pick temperment over looks. I needed to follow my own advice. I dont think Pickles has any real temperment issues but I was determined to get an apricot because so many people "ooh and aaah" over them and I wanted that nice rich red color. I knew he was a confident boy from the get go. But my typical credo when purchasing is match personality between dog and owner first, then go for looks. He's a bit more dominate than my other boys and my strengths come in training the submissive dog. Just how I'm built I guess. A learning experience for me. He's a good boy but he is forceful with his body when he does anything. He is loving to humans but not really "soft" in nature if that makes any sense. For instance, when you pet any of my dogs, they wag their tails typically. With his tail wag he could take out a small city with how he propels it. With Mac and brisby, their tail wags are controlled and gentle. While Jake has his own issues regarding exhuberance, the predominance of poodle in him makes his actions very elegant and not forceful. Just interesting differences.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Everything you've said makes perfect sense to me, including the part about Pickles not having a "soft" temperament; it's a term I'm very familiar with. In show dogs, at least show poodles, they look for those dogs who don't have a soft temperament. They look for dogs who like a lot of attention and aren't shy about demanding it, lol. Which would be a good discussion for another day, how there are different kinds of acceptable temperaments, depending on what you want to do with a dog. So many people think there's either aggressive dogs or dogs with "good" temperaments. But what's a "good" temperament in a family pet may not be a "good" temperament in a show dog, or a guide dog, and vice versa. 

I'm the type of person who always wants to know the "why" behind everything, and I think you might be one too. Why does my dog have this disease, why does my dog have this behavioral issue, what happened to cause this? But at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter what caused it, the real question is what am I going to do going forward? (Thank you, dear Jane, lol) Knowing why JD got IBD doesn;t help me treat it, and knowing whether Pickles temperament comes from red poodle genes won't help you determine how to train him. They are what they are. I have no doubt you'll figure it out, and I think Pickles couldn't be in better hands. :)

[F, Calla & Luca]

Great Points. I always say that why is hard to answer but it is more important to know what to do to make things better.