Im apprehensive of going to my doggy training class.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

I am worried about Sunday's up and coming doggy training class. Yesterday was the 2 hour intro class without the dogs by the "Certified Master Trainer". The gist of it is they dont believe in treat rewards. The dog is trained to do what it is expected to do by the leader of the pack, and it does it because we expect it to , not for a reward. The reward if there is one being a pat or a kind word. Collars are mandatory for training classes either choke chain or prong collar. They brought their dog, a German Sheperd, who was in the crate the whole time till it was time do "demonstrate" The dog was on the ball alright, it responded immediately and impressively to all commands but he was in a semi slink position the whole time with ears flat and tail low. To me it looked the dog was scared sheetless to get anything wrong. Didnt look like a proud regal, tall postured GS at all. Is this what well trained dogs look like? Are they supposed to look scared? I dont want to judge beforehand and feel like they are hardasses...but should a dog look like that? Walking low in slink/crouch, flat ears, tail low, eyes on master???

Some weird homewrok consists of spitting in the bowl before I feed the dog, which I am to feed only after I eat myself. We dont do this at all. We have 3 free grazers. I just fill them in the morning and they graze here and there during the day. I refill at night.

How am I going to deal if she expects me to yank my dog harder than I want to etc....

[Adrianne Matzkin]

I wouldn't work with a trainer with that philosophy. I love the freespirit of my girls and the happiness they exude when we work together. Charli will be going to her 3rd PK class tomorrow morning and she just loves it! They have puppy playtime which she just loves. She soaks in her lessons and is doing very well. Even in the dog park!

I expect my girls follow my 'commands' but I believe teaching them with rewards keeps their tail held high and their eyes filled with love. Just my opinion.

[Adina P]

If you're not convinced on the goodness/value of this class. DON'T GO! I'm telling you that most obedience class students (i.e. the dog owners) aren't that good at follow through as it is...you'll be AWFUL if you don't like it and are uncomfortable with the techniques methods.

I trained Rosco with a choke chain and on occasion a prong, Thule was taught excellent heeling this same way and Cass was trained to off leash reliability this way. None of my dogs slink or look pitiful. I find that many GSD's tend to look slinky because of their breed standard...but not ears down and all that miserable stuff. If there are any other classes/trainers locally...try somewhere else! If not, there are other options with books, videos, etc that might be better suited to what you're comfortable with. Otherwise I promise you you'll get nowhere with this class.

I think there are excellent trainers out there for both treat/reward based training and training that uses corrections...but it doesn't mean all correction trainers and all treat trainers are good. Ya gotta judge them individually.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I also went to the first "intro" session of an obedience class taught by an old-time "master trainer" that was very similar to what you're describing, and the next morning I called and asked for a refund on the remaining sessions. This one also insisted on prong collars, and demonstrated with her own Golden Retriever, who was beautifully behaved; what really got me was when she demonstrated corrections (jerks, grabbing the dog's mouth, etc) on this dog who had hadn't done anything to deserve a correction. We were shown how to smack the dog under the jaw for barking in class, and how to slam a dog's head down on the ground for taking his leash in his mouth. (She stopped short of actually doing it to her poor dog, but I was done by then.)
This instructor was recommended to me by the owner of Jack's lab girlfriend, and a woman at the vet's office. The lab in question still has to be tugged at and given verbal reminders to sit at corners before crossing the street. My dogs all sat automatically when I came to a stop, without my saying a word, and I didn't have to jerk them or use a prong collar to teach the behavior. I should have known from that example that this instructor's methods were not going to work for me.
I am sure there are many former students who are well-behaved dogs and happy owners, but you have to find a class and an instructor whose methods you are comfortable with; there isn't any one right or wrong way, but there are ways that may be right or wrong for you. The purely positive training class we took didn't work so great for Jack, but at least I wasn't uncomfortable with what I was doing.
I don't think this is the right class or instructor for you.

[Lorraine Bromley]

Cancel and do some more research on others in the area even with in a short drive.

[Leanne Hopkins]

We attended dog classes like you describe with several of our dogs. Then we met and started working with PAALS (www.paals.org). Through the director and trainer we learned positive ways to train dogs. It's amazing what you can accomplish with positive reinforcement and a positive attitude. Our doodle who is being trained as an assistance dog has never worn a pinch or choke collar. He behaves reliably and beautifully. He also is happy and holds his tail proudly. He loves what he's doing. Dogs love us. They just need to understand what we want them to do. I feel like it's our responsibility to help them see (sometimes through a series of baby steps) what we want. If they get confused we need to find another way to relay the info. I don't ever want to go back to negative reinforcement.

[Holly St Pierre]

I would never work with a trainer that insists you work with a choke or prong collar. Most good trainers don't accept them in their classes. I have never heard of spitting in the bowl. That sound barbaric. I would bail out, especially if you have reservations already.

[Tammy & Gracie]

Yeah, I think I woul bail also. My trainer suggests choke collars only after a strong, large dog demonstrates need for it. She never allows prong collars. It does sound a little barbaric. I would run away and find a trainer with love and compassion for dogs.

[Adina P]

It's interesting how adamant some trainers are. Yes to chokes, no to prongs...Others would say NEVER chokes, but prongs are humane. LOL. I use both for basic obedience and for some things I use treats. The tool doesn't say much about the training, but seeing a live demo and NOT liking it means she should go somewhere else because she won't do well with it if she's not doing it as the trainer says.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

If I may back track for a second. They gave us a good demonstration of the collars. The choke chain is meant for a snap and release and put on in the shape of a P not a 9 so it doesnt choke up on the dog. The prong colllar is designed to do a pinch not a poke. It grabs skin and pinches with a snap (like a mother dog grabbing the scruff of the neck) it is not designed to hurt them either. They demonstrated on the top part of our arms and I am satisfied the pinch collar isnt as morbid as it looks. They actually encouraged the prong over the chain because they said postmortem studies were done on dogs where owners used one over the other and the least tracheal damage was found infact in pinch. Chain was the worst due to inproper usage (9 instead of P)

The collars are used for training, not everyday use. Also they were very adamant that hitting, slapping, any displays of anger towards the dog would result in expulsion from the class.

As far as going elsewhere, unfortunately it is this trainer or none as there is no other in my region at all. The next is 8 hour drive away. Cant do.

The training is called "no limitations" if anyone has heard of this method.

I have paid and there is no refunds without a vet note. I will go and see.

[Adina P]

If you go just be prepared to COMMIT and follow through or 'quit' if you find it truly offensive. Again...if you don't follow a program as the trainer instructs then the training will be useless and you might as well go play in the backyard with your dogs because it will be a better use of your time.

When she said the collar is only used in training I'm assuming she means you don't leave it on your dog UNsupervised and it's not their chill out collar. But I would guess (just guessing) that it should be on anytime you MIGHT be issuing a command...if that wasn't clear get clarification. Because to me if 1/2 the time you give commands that can't be reinforced and the other 1/2 the dog is reinforced/corrected...then the dog will ONLY obey when it's leashed and collared...which isn't that useful. So ask for clarity on this... :)

[HANNAH 8/2/07 & HONEY 7/2/08]

My question is to this trainer is why do you need a choke or prong collar on dogs to start, you don't know if they will listen on a flat collar, and to say they all need to start on one, that would have ruined Hannah from the get go.She easily would of had her tail between her legs. She has only ever been on a flat collar, never on a choke or prong. She may be the exception to the rule...but than there always is one, but to start them out like this without even giving a dog the benifit of the doubt, I think that is bad for any trainer. Also with the way you describe the trainers German Shepherd, that is a scared dog, you can very easily give your dog wrong corrections at home with a choke or prong collar and if you do not give the right corrections, than your dog will learn their mistakes are okay. seen that happen already with the use of choke collars.

[Adina P]

I don't think either of those two tools are a 'last resort' tool or a tool 'if they don't obey'. Some methods simply use them from the start because they are incorporated in a way to be useful and if the method is a good one they are used appropriately immediately. Without them it's a different method. Done correctly, even a soft dog can be trained with a good method that uses the choke chain. It just has to take the dog's personality into consideration and be fair. But I think it's a mistaken notion that prongs and choke chains are a 'last resort' type tool. It just depends on the method. Methods usually come with set in tools. THIS trainer's method uses a choke chain or prong. Not defending or promoting the trainer's ways...I can NOT without actually seeing what they do.