Multi gen, F1, F1B, etc. help with definitions.

[jenn D]

I think I know some of the labels for types of Labradoodles but after a conversation with my hubby, I started getting a little bit confused. Brisby is a Multi generation austrailian labradoodle. Here's what I know of jake his father was a poodle and his mom was offspring of a poodle and a Labrador. So does that make him an F1B? I think that he has 75% poodle in him if this is the case.

And then the size thing. Hubby wants to know how you get a mini doodle because in his mind he sees this giant Labrador trying to mate with a tiny poodle and I tried to tell him more likely its a multi gen breeding program where smaller and smaller doodles are bred together. He asked if that means more poodles in the genetics of the dog. Also he wanted to know what the personality difference was between golden doodles and Labradoodles.
I said I don't know the answers to many of these things and I would ask you wise ones. :)

I do think jake acts much more poodle-y than Brisby.

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

Hmm

I'm seriously thinking about making a flowchart in PowerPoint to post because this topic comes up a lot!

Baby is sleeping so maybe I'll make one now :p

[jenn D]

J,
I bet it does come up! Thanks for clarification.

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

Here we go!  I made a picture.  I think I got it right (I really hope so, since I teach basic genetics lol).  

You can get a multi-gen doodle of smaller sizes by breeding a small backcrossed doodle (like a f2b) to another of the same for a few generations, assuming the poodles used in the breeding process are mini or toy.

[jenn D]

I love it, J! Thanks!

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Nice job, J.
Pictures are the best way to learn

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'm pretty sure that very few reputable breeders are breeding F1s to F1s, (your F2 example): that's not recommended as you can get a dog who looks exactly like a purebred retriever or poodle. It's much more common to breed an F1B to an F1, and then go from there to create the F2Bs, F3s, multigens, etc. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

From IDOG: Please note: Breeding a F1 to an F1 is not considered to be an appropriate step in breeding crosses. Two F1's produce on average 40% purebred pups of the Poodle breed, 40% purebred pups of the Golden Ret (or Lab) breed, and only 20% true F2 crosses. The breeders crossing two F1's are not following proper protocol for developing deeper generations. One must first cross an F1 back to a Poodle to produce an F1B. An F1B and an F1 produce the first F2.

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

Hmm ok!  I'll add F1 to an F1b.  What would you call that though?  I'll just label it F2(b) for now.

I'll also add F2bb, which is probably the way you'd get a very small doodle.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I don't know about F2bb, never heard of that before. The "B" in F1B stands for "backcross". 

[F, Calla & Luca]

Yes, Jake would be an F1b. Hopefully the multi gens are gradually bred down. I am not sure of the logistics or if it's always the same. But breeding very large dogs to small dogs is a bad ideas from a skeletal point of view.as far as personality Goldendoodles and Labradoodles seem very much alike.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Unfortunately, there are quite a few breeders who do breed tiny miniature and even toy poodles with full size Goldens and Labs; The mother is always the Retriever, for obivous reasons, and it's done by artificial insemination. AI is used a lot in breeding of all breeds of dogs, as a particular stud may be in a completely different part of the country, so frozen semen is shipped. 

[jenn D]

Wow, I would have never guessed that. Hmm. It's really an interesting topic as there are so many deviations and lots of room for good breeding practices and bad ones I guess. I'd love to learn about how doodles took off here and how and why breeders do what they do.