Our breeder's response to Ollie's hip dysplasis - hmmmmm

[StaceyW]

I think a number of you will find this exchange interesting (I took Breeders' names out) - start at the bottom and read to the top of the chain

Hi Breeder– thanks for the response. No way are we returning him – we love him and he is part of our family now. I wanted you to be aware so that you do what you can on your end to make sure your breeding dogs do not themselves have bad hips and for you to check Ollie’s parents specifically.



Re: how we discovered it: I noticed that he limps when he gets tired when we walk. Also – he has never jumped up on anyone – a plus – but very unusual in a puppy. He also has trouble with stairs and jumping into cars. Finally – he bunny hops when he plays which is a sign as well. We had him x-rayed on Monday when he was getting neutered and the vet confirmed that he has severe dysplasia on the left side. We are going to take Ollie to see an ortho surgeon next week to discuss the options but from what I understand he will likely have an osteotomy or a total hip replacement.



Fortunately – we got pet insurance and much of it will be covered. Our deductible on the insurance is $150 and then we pay 10% of all future services for the hip. Thus, I think as gesture of good faith, it would be nice if you would refund us $150 for the deductible but that is entirely up to you. We adore Ollie and will do whatever we can do make sure he lives a long healthy and active life. Thanks. Stacey







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From: Breeder
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 12:21 PM
To: Wolf, Stacey
Subject: Re: Oliver



Hi Stacey!!!!!

I"m so sorry that I'm so long in responding! We had a huge costume party here last night for our sons 10th birthday and I have been swarmed! _______told me someone called about a puppy but I thought he meant wanting one of the upcoming ones so I didnt' check msgs until after the party. I'm just reading your email and I'm soooooo sorry!!!!!! How did u find out he had this?? Wow.. that's really young to be getting it but from what I read it's a good thing u caught it young! It's better prognosis if you do than when they're older. I sure hope they can do something for him! Please keep in touch with his progress.

Did you get a guarantee from us? Our guarantee says we will pay 1/2 the money back and u return the puppy to us with 2 different written reports from two different vets. I'm sure you can understand why we do this. Hip dysplasia skips generations so often. We were planning on getting them tested but it's an hour away and that vet is the only one that does it anywhere in our area, that we know of, and is swarmed. We are waiting for them to have an opening. Some people tell us that there's still no guarantees with that because even if mom and dad have great hips it dosnt' mean their parents did. In the same litter.. u can have puppies with great hips and some without. I guess it's like children. There are no guarantees. But we will be more than happy to fulfil our guarantee. If u want to return him we will be sure he gets the best treatment available.

Please let me hear back exactly what the treatments are and what type of surgery, etc... _____and I are soo concerned for him :( We hate so bad to hear this. These guys grow under our care and we love them incredibly. Thanks for letting me know and I look forward to hearing back from you. We'd love to see pictures of him too when u get the chance!

Take care,
Breeder

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Wolf, Stacey wrote:

Hello – I have left two messages in the last week on your home voice mail but have not received a return phone call. I was calling to let you know that Ollie has hip dysplasia on the left side and is going to need significant treatment and surgery. He is a wonderful dog and we adore him but are very sad that he is going to have to go thru all of this. We wanted you to be aware so that you can make sure your parent dogs get their hips tested so that if this is genetic – you no longer breed those dogs so as to save other families and dogs from having to go thru with this. We would like you to consider refunding some or all of what we paid you for Ollie so that we can use it toward his soon-to-be significant medical expenses. Please respond to this email. Thank you. Stacey

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This is appalling. Any guarantee that requires the return of the puppy is worthless and any breeder that requires this is NOT a responsible breeder.
(Everyone should read Adina's discussion "What to Look for in a Breeder" for more on this. http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/what-to-look-for-in-a)

You do have some recourse, however.
If your breeder is a member of the ALAA, and is a Member Breeder, she is in violation of their terms of membership:
Labradoodle Breeders with the Australian Labradoodle Association of America, Inc. (ALAA)
All ALAA breeding dogs are hip tested as a requirement for membership. The ALAA identifies Breeding Members who test beyond entry requirements with the following emblems:
The Silver Paw
The Golden Paw
http://www.ilainc.com/ALAAPAwRewards.html

Since you now have proof in writing of the hip testing not being done on the breeding dogs, I would send a copy of the email to them immediately.
I would also notify the directors of any other breeders' association to which this breeder belongs.

I know that's small comfort to you and poor Oliver. I feel so bad for both of you. But maybe this will help prevent others from buying from this individual, and others like her.
Word of mouth goes a long way toward making or breaking any business.

[Sandy]

I think a responsible breeder stands behind to health of their pups. Nowhere near as significant, but our Toby had only one descended testicle, and thus required the more invasive surgery when he was neutered. We informed our breeder, and they sent us a cheque for the extra cost, over and above what the normal neutering would have cost. Asking for $150 is minimal, and you've done them a favour telling them the parents need to be tested. That being said, they have no business breeding the adult dogs if they haven't been tested.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Yes, Adina's Rosco had entropion in both eyes, and her breeder reimbursed her for the full cost of the surgeries. That's what a responsible breeder (and a decent human being) would do.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I find it very sad that the parents' hips were not tested, which should have occurred before they were bred. Also, the breeder doesn't even know if she gave you a health guarantee. And what kind of health guarantee is that where they return 1/2 the money you paid and take the pup back as the only option offered it seems. I understand that you don't want to return Ollie but they don't even offer to replace him with a healthy puppy if you did.

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

yes, meant to add that. She didn't remember the health guarantee? What the heck?

[1xar0x2rcx0li]

No excuse not to have the parents tested. "1 hour away". Oh MY GOODNESS< is their life so busy they cant take out a few hours ONE TIME to have their dogs tested to save dozens of families the heartache of puppy in pain. They should not be breeders. They probably dont test because they will breed the parents regardless of the results and dont really care about the health of the puppies. Shame on them. And they should pay the deductable at least and ask for only a picture of your precious pup in return, not the actual dog.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Now that I think about it it's about 1/2 hour to get to my regular vet! There are many closer vets but I like and trust her so the trip is worth it to me. what bozos.

[Sandy]

My vet is 1/2 hour away too. There is one three minutes away, but mine is 24 hours, and there is always someone there. I like that.

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

There is one vet that is less than a block from me, but don't feel comfortable with them. I drive 30 minutes too! And I am in a populated city with a vet every 2 miles probably!
I think to charge what they charged is ridiculous without proper testing.

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

Yeah right like you would return Ollie! I think you were incredibly nice in your email, by the way. I can tell you really love your little guy!
Does hip dysplasia really occur so often if you actually test the parents and they are cleared? Just curious (may be a whole new discussion), but my breeder told me that she has only had 1 report of hip dysplasia for the past few years and it was discovered after her 2-year guarantee. She still offered to refund the money and of course, dog stayed with its family!

[April Cliber]

All right this is the last time I'm sticking my neck out this week! :o) (One of these day's it's going to get chopped off...)

First, what Oliver is going through is VERY heartbreaking and I wish you all the best. It's so sad that you & he have to go through this.

I would guess that only about 20% of doodle breeders are health testing their breeding stock. By far the vast majority don't do any testing at all. Because of forums such as DK, people are becoming educated about the importance of health testing. It is completely up to the consumer to thoroughly check out their breeder before purchasing a puppy from them. I know some VERY nice people who have beautiful dogs, take great care of them, home raise puppies and have a great website. They do no testing at all, yet still sell pups for over $1000 each. WHY? Because they are super nice on the phone, their house is clean and the dogs are sweet. If I knowingly bought a car with no warranty and it broke down after a week I would be so mad at myself for not making sure the car came with a warranty. If I only paid a few hundred dollars for the car and was willing to take the risk then so be it. BUT I knew that I was taking a risk. Obviously a living creature is different then a car, but you are still investing money and need to make sure you fully understand what you are purchasing and what is expected of both parties before making the purchase. That's true weather it's a car or a pup. If I knowingly bought that car with no warranty, they would laugh at me if I walked into the dealership and asked for a partial refund after the car was broken.

Whoever the breeder is, he/she is not an ALAA member. The ALAA has strict guidelines and wouldn't accept a member with such a pitiful contract. This not a great breeder, however from what I see, she didn't misrepresent herself.

BTW, your walking a legal fine line here. It's good that you left the name off the emails, but I think it's illegal to copy and paste a private email on a public forum. I could be wrong, but be careful.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Okay, you can keep your head this time, lol. That makes perfect sense.
The thing is that we know there are a lot of great doodle breeders who do all the testing and truly care about their dogs, but these kinds of people spoil it for everyone. This is the kind of thing that the doodle detractors point to in those kinds of dog forums where they say things like "labradoodles (goldendoodles) are just mutts that come from puppy mills. Those breeders don't do health testing".
And we all feel so bad for Stacey & Ollie.