PLEASE HELP!!! IMPORTANT QUESTION/ PROBLEM NEED ADVICE

[Kona]

Hi

I joined this forum yesterday as we are at a crossroads with our Aussie Labradoodle, Kona, 17 mos. Please bear with this long post but I want to give a full picture as I am seeking advice from anyone who has experienced anything similar...

We received Kona last Spring from Oregon.    He arrived after a looooong flight to NY that from start to finish covered a whole day.  I bring that up because I truly feel Kona was somehow traumatized by the flight as he was slow to warm up to people and a very skittish and aloof for a long while.  With lots of love and attention, he started to come into his own. We have three children that are very responsible with Kona and are old enough to know how to treat him.  Kona exhibited some troublesome traits beyond normal puppy behavior early on.  Believe it or not, our little Aussie labradoodle had traits of dominance/aggression.  He would stand up on high objects, growl and bite, way beyond playful biting, hump the younger children and refuse to be removed,  growl and bite when he was removed from situations etc.   He bit a few times to the point of drawing blood ( not a playful puppy nip) even though we tried all manner of bite inhibition, he showed signs of biting in anger (including a bite to my ndaughter's face).   We would immediately correct the behavior and sought the help of trainers, so the kids could learn how to properly deal with him at all times.  We also supervised the children with Kona and did not allow them to play any tug of war or roughousing type games that would feed the behavior.  A mutual friend of ours is friends with Brian Kilcommons (author Good Owners, Great Dogs) and Brian was kind enough to give us a phone consultation.  Brian was very troubled by Kona's behaviors, especially for his young age and strongly felt we should consider returning Kona to the breeder.  Well, at this point, we were already head over heels in love with Kona( despite his behavior) and really were incredulous as we had done extensive research on the breed and finding a good breeder asnd just did not want to accept that analysis.  We also thought that we as a family must somehow be to blame as Kona was so young and thought we just needed to train him better.  We also did not want to rely on a phone consultation for such a colassal decision so we called upon an expert that Brian had recommended to make an in person evaluation.  To make a long story a little shorter,  a trainer came in and observed our 12 week old Kona and did a variety of "tests" with him.  Some direct quotes from her report are as follows:  "Kona exhibited inappropriate levels of aggression for a puppy of his age in a variety of circumstances...Kona responds to normal life events with offensive aggression...Kona is presenting with forward and offensive aggression to a variety of normal life events."  She then went on to list three ares that troubled her most:  1, his forward and aggressive reaction to being removed...2. the fact that Kona growls and has bitten members of the household if approached in a variety of circumstances... and 3.  when assessing his resource guarding potential... he exhibited behaviors that typically precede biting.  She went on to conclude that "while at this stage Kona's behaviors are juvenile and lack the intensity to cause much harm, the fact the he has presented aggressive behavior at such a young age concerns me greatly.  Kona's assertive and aggressive behavior will increase in both severity and frequency as he ages...he should be returned to the breeder as soon as possible." 

After that evaluation, we contacted our breeder to voice our concerns.  Of course, she did not agree with the assessment and felt that he was fine and loving when he left her home so that we must be at fault in not extablishing his place in our pack, etc.  She was, however, willing to take him back but felt strongly that it could not possibly be the dog as this had never happened before, he was evaluated etc.   After a long conversation and some back and forth emails, we decided to really give it another try with Kona, hire a trainer who would work with the whole family and really give it our best shot as we did not want to give up on Kona.  ( on a side note, we were experienced dog owners who had never encountered such problems before)  Even though Kona had such a negative evaluation from the1st trainer, we felt that maybe she was somehow biased by Brian's opinion and rationalized that she couldn't possibly get to know the dog after a 1 day meeting... so we continued

 

We then had another trainer in who was also disturbed by his dominant/aggressive behavior but felt that with "hug therapy" (her words) and a bunch of other methods to get him used to being submissive (he would refuse to lie on his back or side), he was trainable. We didn't really gel with that trainer so we called upon another woman who has a great reputtion in our community.  (Yes at this point we were investing way too much $$ but we really did not want to give up)  This trainer was great.  She definitely was troubled by some of Kona's behaviors and said he was an alpha dog all the way but felt she could help our family work with him.   She aslo felt that he was under handled at the breeders (hotly contested) and over handled by us intially .   We had weekly sessions with her as well as daily homework.  Our whole family worked hard on implementing her training methods to oversome his undesirable behaviors.  After a lot of work, Kona sits on command, stays, waves, dances, rings a bell to go outside etc.  He still chooses to ignore commands but hey, he's a playful puppy...

Over time, we felt we had worked out a lot of his issues and Kona became our companion EVERYWHERE.  It started with a trip to North Carolina beaches last summer and continued to many more places including, parks, lakes, other vacations etc.  He is extremely well socialized and loves meeting new people.  He was still very dominant when meeting other dogs and very demanding of attn but we just felt that's his personality.

OK so now the tough part.  When Kona was about a year old this past winter he was on our bed one morning and my youngest daughter 7 went up to greet and pet him.  He was awake but still lying down and as she bent over to kiss him, he snapped and nipped her in the face. His tooth caught her eye and unfortunately scratched her cornea but he did not puncture any flesh on her face.  After of course dealing with her medical issue, we dealt with Kona.  We rationalized his behavior again, chiding our daughter for bothering him when he was lying down, for not heeding his warning of a snarl etc.  We also implemented a no bed rule and moved him to the floor as we did not want him to feel over confident, possessive etc.

Bite number 2 :  Kona loves to lie down on a doggie bed in the bathroom when family members are in the shower.  My 9 yr old boy was going to take a shower and saw Kona on his bed.  Because of Kona's facial hair, my son did not see that Kona had a bone/treat in his mouth.  My son  -- who by the way is the most gentle one in our whole family, who feels Kona's pain and gets upset when we even groom him -- bent down to give him a pet before he got in the shower and Kona let out a nasty growl and instantly snapped at Luke's hand.  He ripped the flesh off the top of his right finger, in a jagged line from knuckle to tip.  My son was inconsolable from shock and fear but once again, we rationalized and determined it was the bone/treat and decided we would not give him anymore bones as they were way too important to him.  We were shocked, by the way , as since he was tiny, we had always trained him to not guard his food and often removed his food, treat etc. to train him.  By the way, even if he something really good in his bowl, he is never possessive of his food ...

This brings us to last week:

Bite #3  Kona was on the couch on my husband's lap (groggy) and my 9 y.o.son again went in to pet him and he bit his finger, leaving 2 puncture wounds on his hand.

 

We are now more troubled b/c even though he knew he had done something bad, that same night he growled and beard his teeth at the same son when he entered our bedroom... He seems to in some ways be getting worse as he even growled yesterday when my teenage son went to remove a pencil he was chewing...

 

As I read this, I realize I must sound like an irresponsible parent but you must understand that these isolated incidents occurred over the past 1 and 1/2 years!! and that 99% of the time Kona is the most wonderful dog around.  He is smart, social, friendly and loving!  The children he has bit are the same children he adores.   He loves them to death and lies down on them while they are watching tv, greets them happily , crawls in and out of their legs for affection etc.  He is playful, joyful and happy 99% of the time.

 

That is why we are in such a quandry.  How does this marvelous, trained dog suddenly turn?  Is he safe to keep around or will I be kicking myseld if the next bite (God forbid) is worse...?  The kids once again blamed themselves and all three of them cried for the whole day and begged us not to get rid of him...to give him 1 more chance

ANY ADVICE?  It would be greatly appreciated...we would all be heartbroken but I do not want to jeopardized my children either...

[Adina P]

Gosh. What a tremendously difficult situation. I wish I had an easy answer.
At this point...do you feel like you have the energy/time to attempt one more last attempt at training?

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Wow :( I have one more question. Medical problems? Ears aches?
You did not mention medical issues or vet assessments, although, I am sure you have gone this direction also.

[Kona]

Hi Adina, Joanne
I guess we would be willing to give training another try but not quite sure what that would accomplish as we have instituted most methods to curb aggression.
Re: medical problems -- that's another avenue we will explore when he goes back to the vet this week for shots. We never really addressed health concerns because the instances were spread out in time and he seemed fine. He has had other instances of growling and snarling (mostly at night when tired) so I definitely sho0uld consult the vet. I guess we were afraid as to what the vet might advise...
Thanks -- appreciate the ideas...
Maria

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Send this to the vet before your visit. Can you email. U.S. mail. or drop a copy of this history off to the vet this week so he has some time to read Kona's history over before the physical exam.

You only have a short time during an exam, in a small room, all the time you are paying attention to a dog who is very nervous and the vet has a stethoscope in his ears.

[Adrianne Matzkin]

I wish I had an answer for you! You have done so much in training that it just may be the way he is 'wired'. I don't know if more training would work.
I am certainly NO TRAINER but IMHO is seems that Kona would do well in a home without young children. If I read your post correctly, he has no problems with you or your husband, just the kids.
I can't imagine why he is this way with them but the bottom line is if he hurts one of your children's friends, you will no choice but to find him a new home. The town may feel he is a danger to 'society' and take him from you where you will no say in what happens to him.

I know how far you live from NJ but I know a trainer here in NJ that has assessed Doodles for the DRC (Doodle Rescue Collective) and we take her advice as to what kind of home a rescued doodle would thrive best in. She also works for several towns assessing dogs for aggression issues and they use her opinoin to determne if the dog is safe to be adopted and may just be scared in the shelter situation. If you would like, I can give you her number - I know she will not come to you but you could load up the family and go to her. I trust her with the life of my girls - she will tell you like it is. Just a suggestion.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Did any of the trainers recommend a full physical work-up, including a thyroid panel? I know that most professional behaviorists insist on this as the first step in dealing with the kind of issues you're describing, in order to rule out any physical causes.

[Melissa]

So sorry for all the issues you have gone through with Kona. It is so hard to deal with the bad when most of the time they are wonderful companions. I am no expert, but it would seem that Kona has put himself after you and your husband and before your kids in the pecking order. That he is asserting himself as the Alpha dog around your kids. He may see you and your husband as the Alpha's but maybe to him the kids are "like him" and he feels like he is "above them". Not sure if that makes sense, but maybe working with a trainer again might help.

Before we got Buddy we had a shelter dog for a few months. He was 3 when we got him and a Fox Terrier mix. He was so sweet in the shelter and seemed like a good fit at the time. But over the course of those few months, more and more of his true self would come out. He became too much for us to handle and we decided that it was just not a good fit as painful as that was because we had grown to love him. We went through a few different trainers and methods to try to work with him (even an electric collar). Unfortunately we did not know his history. 3 years is a lot and it was obvious he had gone through some things before we had him. We saw little traces of improvement here and there and were convinced that in the right situation he would be a great dog (large yard to run and perhaps other dogs in the house). He wents nuts and was agressive when other dogs were in sight so we were told that he had to be the only dog, but the trainer actually took him for a couple of days and she said he LOVED being with her dogs.

Anyway, I guess my point is, you have had him since he was 12 weeks. And he was able to be trained and has learned in the past, and you know most of his history, so I would try some more training. Maybe go with a different person and express the major concerns he is having with the kids and maybe you can get those issues under control. And of course like the others have said, take him to get checked out at the vet.

Hopefully everything will work out in the end. You have a strong support here and it sounds like a strong and wonderful family! Good Luck!

[Amanda and Quinn]

I have no easy answers either, but I just wanted to say that I really feel for you - you've obviously gone above and beyond here, and your love for Kona and experience with dogs really comes through in this post. It doesn't sound like a medical issue to me, since these issues have been popping up since day one. I remember reading in one of our puppy books that when true aggression shows up in young puppies, it's extremely difficult to ever get rid of it completely. Which might mean, as Adrianne said, that Kona might be a better fit for a home without children.

[Adina P]

How old was he when he came to you. I know he's 17 months now and was 12 weeks with first trainer observation...but what was his arrival age?

[Kona]

Thanks everyone, what an amazing supportive group. To address some points: no we never had a thyroid workup. We will definitely ask about that -- thanks. Kona was 8 weeks old when we received him. Re: rehoming -- I think I do feel in my gut that he would be better in a home with no children although I don't quite know if we are ready for that step yet. No, he does not have a problem with my husband or me (although he has growled at my husband a few times -- no snap). I agree, he does seem to place himself above the children in the pecking order even though we have tried our best to raise the status of especially our younger two by having them lead him, give him commands, feed him etc. I, too, am beginning to wonder if Kona is simply wired that way as I have read the same thing about aggression -- that it never really leaves the pup. Something I read in a dog training book keeps reverberating through my head about true aggression... that if you train that type of dog, you will have a dog that sits and stays and...bites. We also have not contacted our breeder again as I did not want to make a decision that is so final in the event that she would agree to take him back... Sorry for answering questions en masse but I did not want to ignore anyone's questions or suggestions as everyone has been so wonderful
Thanks and I appreciate it...
Maria

[Lesley, Wellington & Bingley]

Definately get a vet to check him out. As a trainee Behaviourist the first thing we insist upon before begining to assess any case, especially an aggression case, is a full MOT by the vet.

I would also recommed you ask the vet to refer you to a qualified Behaviourist and not a Trainer.

Aggression is a complex issue based around fear and methods used to resolve any problems must not add to the anxiety/fear already felt. But the first step has to be to find out if a medical issue is causing pain/anxiety and resulting in defensive strategies.

Good luck and keep us posted =)

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

Wow, I'm no expert in this area, but just wanted to give you kudos for continuing to try and help him be a fit for your family. If every dog owner put half the effort into raising their pets as you have we would have a lot less dogs in rescue situations. Thank you so much for not giving up on him. I think the recommendation of a discussion with your vet is the next step that I would personally take if I were you. If all medical problems are ruled out, then possibly Adriannes suggestion of meeting with the DRC's behavior expert to see if she can help, or as a last resort surrendering him to the DRC for a home without children might be a good alternative. I know that the safety of your children must be your priority and you have some excellent resources here on DK to help you find an appropriate home if that is what is needed. Good luck. Keep us posted.