Please tell me I didn't make a huge mistake (second doodle troubles)

[Binny P]

We brought Kazuma, our second doodle, home today and it has been a rough ride. To state up front, I think most/all of this is probably pretty par for the course but I am feel overwhelmed and could use some reassurance and/or advice.

Kazuma, our new dood, is a six month old male. Burt Reynolds has been with us since he was 8 weeks. He is now 9 months. Both are neutered.

They spent all day wrestling, fighting, stealing toys from each other, barking, and then wrestling again. It is hard to tell what is play and what is not -- I know a lot of what I am seeing is play, despite the fact that it looks like two stoned bears trying to mate or kill each other. But there have been a few aggression flare ups. The smaller, new puppy -- Kazuma -- keeps trying to hump Burt and Burt clearly was having enough of it by the end of the night. We started out with no toys but by the end of the day added a few in (only because Kazuma is much sneakier and naughtier than Burt and found the hiding spot). They both did a lot of stealing, but Kazuma was worse about it than Burt.

It was A LOT. I mean, I knew it would be a lot. But it was A LOT A LOT. 

How do I help these guys find a routine? When they are sorting thing out between themselves, what is the point where I should break things up? I think there is probably some amount of dog-on-dog correction that is both inevitable and necessary. But I don't know what the line between one dog teaching the other what too much is and a fight that needs to be immediately broken up. And how do you correct your dogs when one is just being kind of a jerk to the other (stealing toys, not taking "no" for an answer to play, etc)?

It is my sincere hope that these two will come to really enjoy each other -- and we definitely say hints of what that could look like today -- some very adorable play mixed in with the dominance/pack order sorting. I could use any tips to help get everyone settled. So far the only creature in the house who is really thrilled with the new arrangement is the cat, who spent all day watching the dogs thinking (I am sure), "At least it isn't me anymore!" and "Idiots." 

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

It is only day one. It takes time for them to figure it all out. I would say as long as they keep going back for more, it is play.  My two dogs still sound like they are killing each other sometimes, but my female is definitely the boss and when she has had enough, she lets Vern know. If you feel it is escalating to unsafe play, I would just step in and calm it down.  Time out in the crate or some kind of distraction. Both of your dogs are still very young and eventually they are going to decide who is the boss. It may well be the new puppy. I would walk them together too.  Meanwhile, they are getting to know each other and I think they just need some time. Hang in there.

[Adina P]

What Laurie said.  AND...for your sanity, feel free to crate them in turns now and then during the day and enjoy the company of one calm doodle at a time.  

[Lynda Kamrath]

Sounds typical to me.  I have three dogs and they wrestle every day.  Sounds like Kazuma is trying to establish the pecking order in your house and he will probably be the dominant dog.  It does take a while for puppies to figure it all out and Bert is definitely still a puppy.  I would say a little time alone for each dog might help - either a walk,  a ride in the car, or crated time for the other dog.  When my sister and I were young and fighting all the time my mother would tell us we could not play with each other.  We were one year apart and it seemed to work fine with us.  When we were told we could not play with each other, we got better immediately because we really did want to be together.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I would say you should break it up between them whenever you are uncomfortable with the way they are interacting.  When my two get a little too excited and I don't like their behavior I put a stop to it.  Initially I would separate them...now they know when I say "knock it off" that they need to stop whatever they're doing and just "chill".  You are their leader so you are the one who should be doing the primary teaching IMO.  My big standard, Murphy, will try to "correct" his brother.  I really don't allow that...I'm the one that does the correcting.  I also really think it would be a good idea for you to establish that you own the toys....you give them and you take them away.  I control the high value toys in our house.  I give them when my guys are calm and behaving and let them play....then I take them away after about an hour (or if there is any issue with their behavior) and put them back into the drawer where they are kept.  I totally agree with Laurie and Adina about crating them to let them calm down.  It's really not a punishment....they both need calm, quiet time.  I love having two Doodles and I'm sure you will too.  Mine are really bonded at this point and seem to really love being together.  Give it some time and I really think it will be a lot less stressful.

[Lori, Winnie, Bob and Indie]

It all sounds like pretty typical behavior. When my 3 are playing with each other they can get pretty rough. But, they all keep going back for more! Stealing toys from each other is normal, too. Ours make a game of it... one takes a toy (or bone) and plays 'keep away' from the others. When one isn't looking, another one will go and "steal" it, too. It's all great fun! We don't correct any of this- we let them tell each other when they have had enough. However, they all know that at any time WE can take the toys, or tell them "settle" to the rough-housing. We do this only if they get super ramped up, or we need some peace and quiet....

[Ginny Nightingale]

When I introduced my second doodle, one was 16 months and the other was 8 months old--they got carried away after just 5 minutes with too much rough play--so I separated them--then they gradually got to be together for 10 minutes before it got too crazy--etc...Finally, after two weeks, I remember looking down and seeing them both lying at my feet and thinking that a miracle had occured--if you want to get the that nirvana, I would not let them establish the bad habit of not playing nicely--use gates to keep them in separate areas when you feel things are not in control--this is my opinion, though so if you want them to work it out on their own--go for it!

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Basically  you have two babies or two teenagers or whatever you want to call them.  i would let Burt chastise Kazuma for humping.  That is the way he will learn.  They have to settle in and it take time. Crate, crate, crate. They need time outs.  You need to correct either one when he gets out of hand with a time out.   I really feel most of it is play but they need time for you to gain your sanity so crate both or put them in separate rooms or whatever you need to do to enforce some peace.  Keep one out and one crated and switch off.  Remember you are still training both of them, and Kazuma has more to learn.

[Binny P]

Hi all --

Thank you thank you thank you for all of these responses -- so so helpful, even if just to know that we aren't crazy and it will (hopefully!) get easier! 

It is super interesting to watch these two -- there is still a lot of jockeying for position and frequently play gets out of hand. But we are taking the advice to crate them at various points during the day (Mr. Zuma is currently in his crate after he and Burt got a little too rough and worked up). We are improving our crate treats to help make the crate a place where they get the most special bones that they aren't allowed anywhere else, which is helping a little. I also took all the toys away and bring them out only at certain times.  

The Good:  The are hilarious when they are playing nicely, Zuma is a total sweetheart (much more of a Golden personality and just a super sweet snuggler, which Burt, while he is a doll, is not), they are getting a ton of energy out with each other (though it takes twice as much work on our end because they can't really be trusted unsupervised, as they need to be broken up pretty frequently, though I suspect that will improve with time), and they are  both really smart. When I do need to break them up I can make them both stop and sit (though usually with a louder intervention than I would prefer -- my partner has no idea where they deep voiced human yelling "STOP" in the living room came from!). They are also getting better at settling down -- for the first two days, anytime Zuma laid down, Burt would harass him and today they both napped on the floor without Burt bothering the littler puppy or trying to make him play more. 

The bad: I am afraid they are never going to sort it out and will kill each other or make each other unhappy or that by having both of them, they are going to ruin each other and two previously lovely dogs are going to become aggressive monsters. Really afraid about the kill each other thing. The playing is so rough with so much snapping and flailing of teeth -- I still have a really hard time telling what is too far, so am mostly trying to just let it be but step in when it reaches the point where I am just super not comfortable with it. I am also stepping in if Zuma gets too humpy. 

Questions:

When you have to break up your dogs, how do you do it? I wish I could say that mine will listen with just a normal voice command like "stop" or "leave it" but they don't. It takes me yelling to get their attention. Once I have their attention, they generally will listen and I can get them both to lay down at least momentarily (while they are waiting for a treat), but I for sure I have to strongly assert myself to get the attention. 

What is your marker for "unsafe play" or too much? What things clue you in that it is time to break it up? When do you feel like things have gone too far? 

[Lori, Winnie, Bob and Indie]

Are you able to capture the play on video and post it here? It would be really helpful to see it. I say that because my dogs will show their teeth, growl, bark, lunge at each other, pin each other to the ground, etc. all while playing. They will nip at each other while they are doing all of this, and if you watch closely you can see that they take turns "attacking" each other. If one dog nips a little too hard and the other one squeals a bit, they ALWAYS respect that and back off. Then they will take a little break, get some water, and go back at it! :-)

We've had Winnie since she was a puppy, and when she was 2 we added 2 year old Bob to the mix. And then a year later we added 1 year old Indie. So, Indie was the last one to join the pack, and he is also the youngest. The play between Winnie and Bob is much more "aggressive looking" than the play between Bob and Indie. Winnie and Bob do a lot more growling and snapping, flashing their teeth, etc. Bob and Indie do a lot more "dancing around" when they play- pivoting, light on their feet, chasing each other, etc. Indie LOVES to "go for the neck" on Bob and grab his collar. He's ruined 3 of Bob's collars doing this, and we now have a Break Away collar on Bob for safety reasons.

My marker for "unsafe play" would be if one dog is pinning the other to the ground and not letting him up. Or if one repeatedly squeals and the other one isn't respecting that. These things have never happened with my 3, but they have happened when my Winnie is playing with another female. She tends to dislike other females, and that is one of the reasons why we made sure our 3rd dog was a male. With our 3 we have had to say "settle" with them simply because they were playing so loud that we couldn't hear the TV! :-)

[Deanna & Desi & Cori]

Our two are only seven months apart - Desi turned 2 in November and Cori will be 2 in June. It was fascinating to watch Desi’s play evolve from the time we brought two-month-old Cori home until now. Somehow he knew that early on he had to play gently and was pretty alert to her squeals if he got too rough. As she grew, so did the intensity of his play. Even though they are half-siblings and were supposed to be “mediums”, Desi is 45 pounds and Cori is barely 25 pounds. Nevertheless, they go at it now with full intensity. He uses his weight; she uses her speed and agility. There have been times that Desi has Cori pinned and she is flailing helplessly so we break it up, but seconds later she’s back on the attack - obviously she wasn’t worried. 

Nothing here of any any advice to you - except to give it time as your two settle into their fighting roles. I’m far from an expert, but I doubt that their play will ruin them.