Puppy Mills and BYB

[Lorraine Bromley]

The conversations of this week have been on my mind alot. I am also having some personal issues with my son and his girlfriend are getting the second great dane puppy. The first is one year old now and they are great parents. We don't agree with them getting the second puppy. We didn't agree with them getting either dog. I can't do anything about it. THe first one they compromised with us to buy atleast a puppy that had a health guarantee and the parents were genetically tested. This one has papers on the parents and health checks as well but is a first time breeder and is not registering the litter. They found it on Kijji. They argue that Kijji is not a bad place to get anything. These are back yard breeders. The price reflects that. I don't think that the dogs would qualify for CKC as they have faults as far as I can figure out. I don't know much about pure breds and how they are qualified and what happens when they don't qualify to their standards. I do know that I have used just about every argument known to man and all the information I have learned from DK to change their minds. It is not happening.

There have been allegations that the breeder that I got Neely from is a puppymill. I really don't think that they are but they are not a home breeder they are a kennel. I have been there and also have talked to and still use the same vet. The genetic testing is great as well. I do think that I would have liked to have the information about that breeder prior to purchase. I was not on doodlekisses at that time. I did not get the info from the DK though. I found one complaint on the internet. Far from a deluge of information.

Recently there have been two large rescues from known puppy mills in my area. Our local OSPCA has had quite a few of these dogs to rehabilitate, and some are now ready for and have been adopted. 

What bothers me is that even though these people have had their dogs taken away and they are a known puppy mill and it has been in the paper no NAMES have been released. WHY??? I want to know!

If the puppy mill has had legal ramifications and has been investigated by animal welfare people and found guilty why not publish their names? I think it would stop alot of these people starting up new set ups with different kennel names if we knew THEIR names. If the KENNEL name was released then that information would be available to people looking for their new pets so they could avoid them no MATTER the COST.

I understand that we can't have people just giving their opinion in public or defaming the people who may not be puppy mills but have allegations against them. It is very easy for someone to put a complaint out there for reasons that may not have anything to do with the way reality is. A small business can be damaged greatly by one customer who could just have been the customer from H---!

What I would like to see happen is to bring the puppy mill people with great web sites or that ship only out into the public and expose them. I think that if there have been legal and or animal welfare people come in and shut you down it should be information we are not afraid to share. I was just on the CKC website and there is a breeder there that is on notice for something and her name and her kennel name are out there for all to see. It doesn't go into detail, only states the infraction type so It would be up to each individual to look into that themselves before dealing with her. Her website doesn't state she is on notice though. We don't have an organization that alerts us to possible issues. We are it. Word of mouth. As long as the word out of your mouth can be backed up by facts presented as legally correct!

It seemed to me (I didn't check as I am not familiar with that area) that the discussion about the possible puppymill had many documents and legal input that it was indeed a puppymill. It would not have gotten heated at all if the person that was looking for her sibling pups would have said, thank you for the information and continued to ask for sibling info. It would have settled us down to realize she wasn't going to advocate for her breeder. Her responses left us no choice but to worry that she would indeed support a known puppymill. And with newbies here expecting support for purchasing their forever friend I would want them to know and it had to be said.

It seems the information on puppymills that have been convicted is not available? I found out in depth about a Canadian Breeder that had several convictions and kept opening under different names. That was a few years ago. That is the only one that I have come across, not that I am looking that hard. I already have Neely so I haven't been searching as much. If the information is out there on convicted or comfiscated puppy mills. Where can we share it?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Postscript to the above: There are good reasons certain colors are less common than others in purebred dogs. Stick with the common colors for that particular breed, they are common for a reason. If you want something "different", get an "unusual" color in a car or a dress, not a dog.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I do know in some, maybe all, breeds merles can be problematic but I'm not sure all somewhat rare colors are a problem. But I guess you'd always be safest with the colors that have more known about them.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

If for no other reason than that the gene pool is much larger. Larger gene pools are a good thing.

But think about it; poodles come in almost every color you can think of, and yet when you watch a dog show, you see blacks and you see whites, and rarely anything else, although the reds, blues, etc are so much more spectacular and certainly more eye catching in the show ring. There's a reason for that.

There is also a reason that certain colors in certain breeds, like white in GSDs and merle in Danes, are disqualified from competing in conformation, and that is almost always linked to health.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Merles can also be a problem with labradoodles. But good point about the gene pool.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Because that also goes to temperament as well as health issues.

[Adina P]

It is a bit surprising how little people read.  I know when I was considering what type of dog to get I would read websites or dog books.  I was attracted to the Akita for a long time because, in that super dog naive time of my life, having a 'protective' dog seemed like a brilliant idea for a single young woman.  But the more I read the more it sounded like a really bad idea.  So I changed paths and looked into different breeds.  But all the descriptions online and in my dog books would say things about a breed's grooming needs or barking habits or trustworthiness around kids, etc.  If a dog looked too difficult or wrong for me I wouldn't have chosen it no matter HOW cute.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

You are exceptional in many ways, this being one of them.

If everyone did what you did in choosing a breed or mix, there would be far fewer dogs in shelters and rescues.

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

Well said!!!

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Thank you for posting this, Lorraine.  Hopefully your DD will look up the link Karen gave you.  At least they would be making an informed decision.  I agree with Adina in her comment that in a person's research it is probably easier to find a good breeder than expose a mill.  There are often clues that make a site suspect if you are really looking. And suspect means rejected in my mind, even if not proven. I also wish that there was a more public/easier way to find out about places that have been raided or cited.  Even if they change their names, it would be nice to see a listing somewhere of 'breeders' who have been cited or raided.  I am not ready for another doodle (drat) but I know that if I don't choose to rescue, it will be from a select list that I have already begun.

[Lorraine Bromley]

Yes that is what is needed a list of breeders who have been cited or raided. I don't see why the local Ospca's that are involved in the rescue aren't doing that. I am going to write a letter to my local one to see what they say. So if I read correctly here when we ask for specific breeder info it is absolutely ok to privately mention a possible or known mill. So with that clarified, let's not hesitate to inform people of these possibilities! 

On a personal note, I am glad that my kids are using BYB that are trying to do the right testing for their breed and using quality stock. Whether they will ever breed with the betterment of the breed who knows. I know the one is trying to as they still have contact with them.  Hopefully all we can do is continue to discuss these things in our home. Note my sons girlfriend a university student took her Christmas money and bought four huge bags of food for the shelter in our town. They also adopted their cat from there as well. Our Neely did come from a large kennel like Karen describes, my morals are fine with the large operation more like a business. I do think that they have been bettering the breed and getting more consistent coats as a goal. They often limit to one colour of coat. Maybe I have talked myself into this but I don't honestly think so. Would there be other questions I would ask if I was to get another from them why yes. But I also visited home breeders that were highly regarded that I would not have adopted anything from although the pups were adorable and the colors I would have preferred. I hope I am not part of the problem, don't think I am. 

I just want a list, is that too much to ask! We'll find out, at least in my area when I ask. 

Thanks for letting me know you all are on the same page and can help out as many newbies as possible in finding a quality breeder with in the price range they need.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Lorraine, what you want is something like this listing the HSUS did in Missouri, only for the whole continent!

http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/hsus-report-missouris-dirt...

[Sherri, Sophie, Winston, & Kitty]

I'm having trouble sleeping but am too tired to take in this discussion intelligently. But I just wanted to post a couple of things. An article that shows that it's not just puppy mills that are problematic, but self proclaimed rescue groups that are operating for profit. http://canada.myletsadopt.com/2011/02/23/for-some-rescue-is-big-bus...

Also, Lorraine, if it's not too late you should inform your son about Birch Haven Animal Rescue. They specialize in Giant breeds, including G.Danes. http://www.birchhaven.org/

They found one recently wondering around on the 401 in the freezing rain and was near death. you can see her story here : http://www.birchhaven.org/?cat=109

Maybe if you can't change your son's mind you could convince him to at least contribute in some small way to a GD in need like Journey...