Seeking Opinions Regarding Adding 2nd Adult Doodle (3rd Dog)

[Jennifer and "Cooper"]

I've seen lots of discussions/posts regarding adding another puppy to an already established pack but we would rather adopt an adult rescue dog.    

A little about our current dogs: We got Cooper in July 2010 when he was 7 weeks old.  At the time we also had a 12 year old female spayed boxer (deceased May 2011) and a 6 year old female spayed toy poodle.  (We still have her.  She hates Cooper-but she hates all dogs. She was my mom’s dog and when my mom passed away, we adopted her.) Cooper is a great dog.  He earned his CGC and Therapy Dog certification when he was 15 months old and does therapy visits with me weekly.  (He loves playing with the other therapy dogs during lunch hours.)  He is fully house trained and has full run of the house when we are gone.  He has quite a submissive personality. 

So my questions are as follows:

1.  Would a male or female be better given the fact that we have a female toy poodle (who hates all dogs) and a submissive male (Cooper)?  Or is it just a matter of finding the right dog no matter what the gender?

2.  What age would be best for the new dog? (We’ve been thinking 1-4 years that way it’s young enough to still be close to Cooper’s age and still have the energy and tolerance to play.) 

3.  We live in a fairly small city in Northern Lower Michigan (Hold up your right hand, palm facing you.  We live at the tip of your pinky finger.)  So far, by looking at the successful adoptions from DRC, I can see that the closest foster home in Michigan is 4 hours away from us, the farthest 9 hours.  I would obviously want to take Cooper to meet a prospective new dog but I’m worried that after being in the car for that long (even with stops or a hotel stay), he’s not really going to be his true self.  Therefore, I may not get a true picture of if the dogs will really get along or not.  Any ideas on the best way to handle this?  

4. Cooper weighs 50#.  For some reason in my mind, I'm stuck on looking for a dog about the same size because I think that Cooper will hurt a smaller dog.  Not because he's done so before, but just because that's what's in my mind.  I can't see him wrestling with a 20# dog and not accidently hurting it if he bats it with a paw, rolls on it, etc.  What  would be a safe weight range for the second doodle to decrease the likelihood of injury to either of them?

5.  Like I said, Cooper is a great dog.  He’s very mellow and laid back and always has been.  (I like to think he learned that from our boxer before she passed away.)  He has been easy to train and just loves everyone and everything.  I know to never expect an additional dog to be anything like the current dog.  So should I just quit while I’m ahead?  Am I just asking for trouble adding a second doodle to the mix?

All opinions and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[Barbara B., Sasha & Oliver]

I have two doodles, I got Oliver when Sasha was 10 months old and it was the best thing I ever did.  I want to rescue #3 doodle but at the moment it is not the right time.  I think it will all depend on the rescue dog's personality, the only problem I see is your toy poodle but some how in some cases dogs will work out their pecking order.  How does your toy poodles react with other dogs?  can you bring in a "test" dog to see how she reacts?  I don't think Cooper will be your problem.  You don't want to bring another dog into the mix if it will make your current dog upset.  My sister has my Mom's 16 yr. old Shih-Tzu who she took after my Mom passed.  My sister got a chowchow puppy and poor Suki was upset but kept to herself and they worked things out.  But the poor chow had to be put down at 10 months because she had a neurological problem and was not developing.  I think it all depends on the personality of the rescue.  I got Oliver so Sasha would have canine company and someone to keep her company and a playmate, they are the best of friends.  If the rescue gets along with other dogs then there may not be an issue.   Good luck in your dicission :)

[Jennifer and "Cooper"]

The toy poodle (Gabby) is the dominant dog in the house.  My mom was unable to socialize her properly because of her failing health so for about the first 3 years of Gabby's life, it was just her and my mom.  I took through puppy kindergarten and basic obedience classes for my mom but other than that, the only other dog she has been around is our boxer.  Even when we adopted Gabby after my mom passed away, she came in and made it clear to the boxer that she wanted nothing to do with her and to keep her distance.   Although our boxer was a very laid back and submissive dog, so she didn't care at all.  When we brought Cooper home as a puppy, he would try to play with Gabby and she made it clear that she wanted nothing to do with him by giving the "stay the heck away from me" growl and showing of the teeth.  And if he didn't listen she would snap at him.  Needless to say, after he had a few clumps of hair ripped out by her, he learned to stay away from her.  Now she just growls anytime he gets too close.  And he knows to not even try to play with her.  If she is laying on the dog bed and he comes to lay down on it too, she will growl at him.  So he doesn't even try to lay on the bed with her.  He just lays on the floor next to the bed.  BUT if he's on the dog bed, she will come and lay next to him without a peep out of her.  So it is truly a "I'm the boss of the dog world in this house" kind of thing.  She does not have these issues with the humans in the house.  Just the dogs.  We tried to socialize her to other dogs of all ages and sizes after we adopted her but it was not successful.  I call her the "Poster child of the dog you WOULDN'T bring to doggy daycare." 

[Tina, Clover, Plus 5 More]

Jennifer...I foster for Doodles and have a similiar situation with my female yorkie Mae West.  She is 9 yrs old, about 10 lbs and dominant.   Clover our 75lb female doodle was my first foster and about 10 mos old when she came to our home.  Needless to say I failed fostering the first time around, lol.  Not knowing all of Clover' history but by watching her play manners and working with a trainer I can only assume.  Clover was probably never around small dogs before and she did not know how to interact/play with them.  The first couple of months Clover put up with Mae West then we had an incident.  We have 3 other yorkies 2 males and another female yorkie Daze Duke.  One day the trainer was coming for a session and had requested all the dogs be together since we were working on greeting visitors.  This was only our second session with her but I thought the trainer knew what she was doing.  I was so wrong.  Clover got over stimulated,  Mae was barking and Daze was behind them.  Clover must of decided she wasn't going to put up with Mae.  Clover turned around to school her but instead grabbed Daze by the nap of the neck.  Clover was getting ready to do what I call the grab and shake.  Luckily I was there to prevent it and we avoided what would have been a terrible outcome.  After this I had to keep the girls seperated for a while and do lots of training.  Since then Clover has learned to interact with the yorkies and even put up with Mae.  But recently I went back to work full time so everyone doesn't get as much attention as before.   Clover has tried to school Mae two times in the last couple of weeks.  If you have ever seen a 75lb dog go after a 10lb dog it looks like the big dog is trying to kill the little one.  There was no broken skin or injuries.  So now we have to go back to training.

Now that I have shared the bad side of things here's the good.  Clover gets along just fine with our male yorkies and has never had any problems.  All the girls can get along but leaving them alone together is something I'm not going to chance.  I've fostered two other 45-60lb female doodles with no incidents or the need to keep them seperate.  Currently I'm fostering a small female ALD that the yorkies except like she was one of them.

It can be harder to bring another adult dog into the home.  Especially when there is a big size difference and dominance issues.  If you can either dog sit or foster another doodle I think it would be a good way to access Gabby reaction to another dog.  Sorry for such a long response.  Good luck in your decision.

[Jennifer and "Cooper"]

Thanks Tina.  Don't apologize for the long response.  This is exactly what I'm looking for.  Opinions and experiences-good, bad or otherwise.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

1. The sex doesn't matter, it's the individual dog's temperament that is important.

2. I would look for a dog who is a bit older, ideally past 3 years old. A very playful young dog will drive your poodle crazy. She was able to establish herself as the dominant dog in the house with Cooper, because he was a baby. That might not be the case with an adult dog.

3. You will never get a true picture of whether Cooper and another adult dog get along well or not until they are living together in your home. Meeting on neutral territory doesn't tell you how they will interact on home turf when everything around them is a shared resource. Fosters usually do not show their true personalities for several weeks, and once a dog understands that he is "home", his real personality comes out. The foster mom will be able to tell you what to expect, because the foster is already living in another dog's home, so you will have some idea of how he will be when he comes into your home. The way Cooper behaves with another dog in that dog's home may not be the way he behaves when the dog comes into his home. Many people think their dogs are great with other dogs, because they get along at daycare, dog parks, play dates, etc. Then they bring another adult dog into their home and are shocked when the home dog acts jealous, resentful, dominant, etc. Let me add that these issues almost always resolve themselves with time. Ask Amy, Cubbie & Ollie about that, lol! She thought the dogs would kill each other when she first adopted Ollie.  It will be a huge adjustment for both dogs. The best advice I can give on this is to start inviting friends and relatives to leave their dogs with you overnight or for a weekend; that is the best way to get a true picture of how both your dogs will behave when a new dog comes into their space.

I can tell you that in about 80% of DRC adoptions, the adopter and any current dogs never meet the new dog until the adoption is a done deal and they come to take him to his new home. And I cannot think of a case where the adopted dog was returned because of problems between the dogs, although there have been many panicky emails and phone calls during the first few weeks until the dogs settle in and work things out.

4. Chances are good that any doodle you find in rescue will be at least 40 lbs, so the size really isn't an issue. I would go bigger rather than smaller, but again, it's a matter of finding the right dog, and size is really not very important.

5. Only you can answer this. Explore your reasons for wanting to adopt an adult dog at this time. Don't do it because you think Cooper would like a playmate, or because you feel sorry for the rescue dog, or because it's the "right" thing to do, or because so many other DK members have two doodles, or for any reason other than that you really, really want another adult dog for yourself, and you are committed to making it work, no matter what.. That's the only thing that would be fair to all the dogs concerned, and the only way it will work out.

Hope this helps.

[Tina, Clover, Plus 5 More]

Well said Karen.  I need to keep this for reference, TY.

[Jennifer and "Cooper"]

Thanks for the reply Karen.  It wasn't until we started to look at getting anther dog that we realized that all of our friends either 1) don't have dogs or 2) have dogs but when we ask them to bring them over to play, the response is either "He/she is too old." or "He/she doesn't like other dogs" or they have a 7 pound pup that Cooper would accidently stop and and break its leg.  (Ironically, I think we all got dogs about 14 years ago before we had kids and now all the dogs are getting old together.  Maybe I should start the opposite of a Doggy Daycare-a Doggy Nursing Home.)  I've thought about posting in our neighborhood newsletter about being available for pet sitting, play groups, etc. at our house to try and meet some of the dogs and dog parents that we don't know. 

After reading your reply I started thinking about when we brought Gabby home after my mom passed away.  And now that I think of it, we did have a few "issues" with her for about a month or two.  If it will be a few weeks after the rescue dog is home before the real personalities of both that dog and Cooper are revealed, would it really be necessary to take Cooper with me to pick up the rescued dog?  I've seen people post experiences where some have taken the current dog and others have gone and picked up the rescued dog and taken it home to the current dog.  

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

You would not have to take Cooper to meet the new dog in terms of knowing how they would get along together, although the trip home together in the car is a good way for them to get slightly accustomed to each other before the new dog actually enters Cooper's home turf. That is the one advantage.

But as you said, many people have just brought the new dog home to the current dog, and things worked out. 

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

1. Right dog no matter the gender.

2.  Any age just needs to be the right dog.

3.  Before meeting the new dog, stop at a school yard or dog park and run Cooper.  The first meeting is really not  a done deal for how they will get along.  It usually takes about 2 weeks for the rescue's true personality to come out and both dogs will need to establish their pecking order.

4.  Size is not totally important. Clancy is 65# and our foster, Sunny was 18# and they played all day long.  It is that Sunny didn't think of himself as a foo foo dog and that Clancy is basically gentle.  Ned is 27 # and plays/played with both Clancy and Sunny.  Sunny was also fostered with my daughter's 70 pound lab and Sunny and he played and played and adored each other.

5. Depending upon your family situation, you might want to keep the status quo for a while.  You can always add another dog later, perhaps even waiting until  your poodle passes?  Two dogs can be really fun, especially two doodles, but what will you do when you want to take them somewhere - what will you do about the poodle? Three gets a bit harder to manage without leaving someone out - I know because we have a third dog that we love and want to include in our fun stuff, but it is lots harder.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Tried to add that we introduced our dogs when we went to get Clancy and the initial meeting was just great.  Our lab mix put Clancy in his place immediately with a 'look' and Ned established his dominance the next day.  Clancy and our Springer, Gordie, took about 2 months to quit arguing. They get along now just fine but once in a while I still have to remove a toy that someone wants to hog.

[Amy, Cubbie & Ollie]

Nancy, it is good to hear that even now you have to occassionally remove a toy.  That gives me hope!

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

My policy is to allow them to warn once, but if they try to 'guard it,' it is gone for weeks.  This only happens between Clancy and Gordie - never with Ned who is now our alpha dog. We have torn-up stuffies and hollow bones all over the house and rarely one will try to guard those, but we only have two nylabones and two femurs, so those items are higher value to them. This never happened between our other dogs, but adding Clancy to the mix (and he is not dominant/aggressive) just changed things even among the cousin dogs. I think it is actually because Clancy and Gordie are both so non-aggressive that they don't know how to accept the same status from each other.