Should Members Be Allowed to Promote their Breeder in our Forum?

[Adina P]

[UPDATE: Since I started this thread, I've come to a decision on the matter that you will find below at the bottom of my discussion topic in bold.]

Hey DK Members,

The question that is the title of this discussion is something I'm struggling with right now. Here's the background to this dilemma:

Because I want this site to be free from SPAM as well as unfettered by constant ads or solicitations from members in the guise of discussions or blogs, our Community Guidelines have explicitly forbidden breeders from posting puppy or dog advertisements anywhere except on their own page or in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (where they must answer questions about their program in each posting). We also forbid other forms of free advertising of one's own goods/services.

But what's unique about puppy/dog ads is that these deal with living creatures--not just a dog
painting, Les Poochs brush, or handbag with doodle embroidery. And in a world with numerous puppy mills and BYB's that can easily fool buyers when all they have to go by is a website, I want there to be some standards about such ads on DK. While I don't and can't do background checks on breeders and the phrase "buyer beware" should always apply because people need to do their own research first...I do try to raise expectations and educate. I ask that important questions about each breeder's program be answered in the aforementioned groups for three main reasons:

1) To discourage BYB's and puppy mills from posting ads
2) So breeders see the high standards that others are following
3) So buyers know there are high standards of testing/warranties and hopefully change their own buying criteria to reflect this (education!).

THUS...the reason I have chosen to keep doggy sales confined to certain groups with rules (not to mention ads are not fitting for a discussion forum).

So here is the dilemma that has been brought to my attention. When members post in the forum asking for recommendations on breeders, is it FAIR for members to pipe in with a plug for THEIR breeder and a link to that breeder's site when many of our active breeder members aren't allowed to also say they have some puppies available? It took me a while to see this point, but I am leaning toward 'not fair.'

Then what are we to do? How do we make this fair yet not become totally fast and loose with allowing ads in the forum? I don't want to get any stricter, so here are two options I'm considering and I'd like your input in general as well as which option you think makes more sense or if you see a THIRD option.

(Option A)
Neither Breeders NOR Non-breeder members may post breeder promos or links to breeder sites in the main forum. But members can discuss their breeder privately as they please. And of course members may always point to our article on What to Look for IN a Breeder as well as to the puppy sales groups. (not my favorite as it keeps education out of the main forum and makes things quite restrictive)

(Option B)
If someone has a breeder recommendation then they can write up a recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and LINK to said recommendation in the discussion at hand or if they cannot fill in the form adequately (due to not having been to the breeder's home, etc) then they can invite their breeder to post in the puppy sales group and then said member can post a LINK to the ad in the group in the discussion at hand. This at least utilizes the groups we already have and continues to do the education I intend.

(Option C)
Continue as usual but ALLOW breeder members to post to any recommendation they have in the Owner Recommended Breeder group AND to their ad in the puppy sales group on DK

I prefer either option B or C or a combo of both to be fair PLUS it utilizes current groups on DK and involves education of members.

And now for your thoughts on this breeder ad/member promoting breeders issue...

[NOTE: Here is the conclusion I reached...

"As I've thought about this more and read all your replies and arguments for the various options...it seems that the most fair and impartial is to go with option A. So let me reiterate what this will mean:

1) Neither members nor breeders may post breeder recommendations anywhere but in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and those recommendations, of course, must fit in with that group's rules/regulations.

2) Neither members nor breeders may post puppy/dog birth announcements or sales notices anywhere but in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (there is an Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale group too I believe).

3) So when responding to an inquiry about a breeder or 'what breeder has a small, red male doodle for sale?" type posts, please direct the person to one of those groups listed above and/or to our What To Look for In a Breeder article.

4) IF you have a breeder recommendation you can:
A: talk to that person privately by leaving a comment on their page or by private message.
B: write up a breeder recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group
C: invite your breeder to post an ad/puppy announcement in the sales group

SO...when a member starts a post asking for breeder recommendations or similar topic, please direct them to the above groups and engage them in a conversation about What to Look for in a Breeder (regardless of the article) and educate them rather than merely giving them a recommendation for YOUR breeder. Let's teach them WHY some breeders are worth the money and what would make a breeder NOT worth recommending rather than just link them to XYZ Kennels.

Our Community Guidelines will soon be updated to reflect this change."]

[Linda and "Toby"]

Personally I feel we should allow breeders to particpate. (No I am not a breeder, nor do I have any friends who are.) I do not consider their information to be spam. To become a breeder they (hopefully) have a love and thorough knowledge of the breed. I would love to get to know the various breeders on a more personal level. Especially if/when I decide to get another doodle. These experts can provide valuable information and insight into the breed, and I don't see why we should exclude them from this forum.

Being "the authorative voice in all things doodle" will attract more people to our forum who are looking for a pup and will make them want to join us once they adopt one. There should be one caveat: breeders should only be able to menton the fact that they are a breeder, or answer questions regarding upcoming litters, etc, on their (GROUP) page. If their member name/signature is "DOODLE BREEDER: XYZ" we will all be able to recognize them (and keep them in line with the rules).

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

"To become a breeder they (hopefully) have a love and thorough knowledge of the breed."
Sadly, this is not true. I will bet that every breeder who has posted in this discussion will attest to the fact that the vast majority of people who are producing doodle puppies for sale are BYBs or worse who do no testing and know nothing at all about most aspects of dog breeding, or dogs for that matter. I personally know of a doodle breeder who had never been in the same room with a poodle before she bred her first litter. Her "clients" recommend her, too. "To become a breeder", in the loosest sense of the word, requires nothing more than a female dog in heat, and a male dog or his semen. I'm sorry to be crude, but that's the way it is. And nobody deplores this more than the truly responsible & knowledgable breeders here. The problem is that the average doodle buyer doesn't know the difference.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

This is why I started the ORBgroup. The breeding community is very small and most of us know one another in some sense.

I am a very critical and opinionated person. I detest that breeders have sold dogs to people who had no clue what the heck they were doing and had never owned a dog before. I know everyone is new at something sometime but this is not like making necklaces or socks.. This involves living creatures that thrive on human companionship.

[April Cliber]

AMEN!!! Well said!

[Adina P]

Breeders CAN participate on DK. They are welcome to respond to discussions about coats and anything doodle really. They are merely not allowed to advertise their puppies. You're right it's not technically SPAM. BUT...there is no screening process for breeders to join so although love and knowledge (and high standards for breeding) of breed is ideal, it does NOT mean all breeders or potential breeders who join fit that criteria.

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

My vote is for option A. If someone inquires about where to obtain a
puppy/dog I think it is appropriate to direct them to the 'what to look for
article', the GD/LD puppy for sale pages, the owner recommended breeder
pages or the many rescue candidates that are seeking homes. I certainly
would agree that people are free to make a recommendation but feel it
should be limited to a comment on the page of the person inquiring or via
sending a message to them. Of course both owners and breeders alike also
have the freedom to either mention they have puppies or where they got
their puppy from or anticipate getting their puppy from on their own page.


You will never make everyone happy but I am certain that most of the
breeders will also tell you that they really do not want to have to sort
through all of those plugs to get to the information they seek also. I
send every puppy inquiry I ever get to doodlekisses, there is information
I think they should know there BEFORE they consider me as a breeder.
I also encourage them to look at our family page and family members,
it speaks more than a possible edited snip on a website. And of the family
pages it is another place where owners are able to express their connection
to a breeder. In my own opinion there are loads of places already without
being all over the main page.

[Nugget's Family]

Thanks, Adina, for putting so much thought into this. I like Option B.

As someone who has only adopted adult shelter dogs in the past (and had fantastic dogs....nothing to do with me....all to do with them) I didn't know how to go about getting a puppy from a breeder. Since my husband wasn't a dog person pre-Nugget (she has won him over...the man spent a good chunk of the afternoon in freezing cold temps playing tug in the snow because that's what Nug wanted to do :-) ) I knew we needed a dog that would have a certain disposition which might be easier to find with a "predictable" breed. After internet research, we decided on an ALD. Had I known about DK, I would have bugged you all about your breeder experience since I was such a novice. I also would have tried going through Doodle Rescue. The breeder questionnaire would have been very helpful. We managed to have a very good breeder experience, without DK...but it would have been a lot easier having all of the info in one place. That being said, I think DK is MUCH more credible as a true resource because it DOESN'T have any ads. So, if going with Option B opens the door to ads coming next, I would rethink my choice and go with Option A.

Thanks again for all you're doing with this site.

Susan

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

I am web challenged. How do any of the things happen in A, B, or C except by member and breeder compliance? I really believe that my breeder is an honest knowledgeable breeder, however I have not been to their house. This would not stop me from recommending them on the owner recommended breeder page, I must stop myself. I have not tried this, but I assume no web magic exists currently that can determine my honesty through fiber optics. I could then recommend them and refer to the breeder group. Any breeder could have a beard ( I am not at all implying that anyone does) to advertise their dogs.

So, if members can, as they do, recommend the breeder that they adopted their dog from then I think that breeder members should also be allowed to recommend themselves with a link to the breeder group. So if I have to chose from ABC or I guess my preference is C. A is unfair, and B relies even more heavily on member compliance than A or C.

However, if it is possible by web magic, any question/discussion about where to get a puppy should have as the first answer a link to the breeder group, with the caution that you (Adina) have no knowledge of this breeder. The second paragraph of the instant web magic answer should caution readers to read the breeder group and do their own research since their is no way to know who is honestly representing themselves or others.

Please don't shoot me for my answer!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I think you've brought up another reason why breeder recommendations don't belong in the forum. No, it's not possible to tell who is honestly representing themselves.
Kendra has set up the ORB group to try to weed out the bad breeders, and her own knowledge helps there. If someone posts on someone else's page, that's a private communication between two parties and it's up to the recipient of the information to check it out. If nobody is allowed to post breeder websites or specific recommendations in discussions in the main forum, it cuts down on the false information as well as the advertising. And I do a pretty thorough job of patrolling the main forum myself, lol, as I'm sure Adina will verify. I volunteer to continue with that.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I truly don't want to get into the merits of A, B or C. I just want to say that people should be ale to freely state facts, in whatever forum is appropriate, without fears of lawsuits. If you write about something you have seen or heard yourself then you should be able to say so. If what your stating is an opinion or a feeling say so. I hope that just stating the truth would suffice to make any libel lawsuit unlikely and unsuccessful. People cannot win a lawsuit just because they don't like what you say if you are truthful. It is not your obligation to prove that you are telling the truth but the other side's obligation to prove that you are not.

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Unfortunately you are right. And I agree with you that I should be able to state my opinion without worrying about liability. But, nyone can sue anyone else for anything. And they do. And all to often the suit actually makes it to court. In which case you are out a lot of money for legal fees whether you are found guilty or not. Internet liability, etc is not very well defined either in law or cases.

[Lori]

Whatever the option, what I think is important is that it's a rule that is easily conveyed and remembered by all and perhaps most importantly, there isn't any ambiguity. I posted something about using the "pie in the sky" breeder and I'm pretty sure that is what started this discussion this time around. As it turned out, I didn't break any rules but was told that I had by someone, and I can see how it could have been a matter of interpretation. I think saying no ads of any kind of any kind on Doodlekisses tends to somewhat defeat the purpose of the site. I agree with Adina - buyer beware. I also think there are enough people on this site that they'd have no problem pointing out if a puppy mill was being advertised. There are always going to be hot button issues and if we could just do our best to make the guidelines clear that goes a long way.Adina, I dont' know if there is a way to do this but perhaps if a reminder of some sort to the community guidelines could pop up at the top of each discussion as a link, that might help.

I used to moderate a site for families of children adopted internationally, and believe it or not one the biggest arguments resulting in the most anger and hurt feelings was referred to as the "Dreft Wars" which was about which fabric softener to use! There were also some bad feelings about certain adoption agencies and we did ultimately have to make the rule that any agency saying to use that agency needed to identify themselves as an adoption agency. A similar requirement could be made for breeders.

I'm a newbie on this site and I don't purport to know a lot...I'm learning, and that is thanks to all the great information provided by the members. Personally, I appreciate the recommendations of specific products - but if the recommendation comes from the person selling that product, I'd also like to know that upfront. That said, I'd vote for Option C.

Lastly, Adina, you do an incredible job with this site and I know it's a ton of work and a true labor of love. I know that we would have survived Leo's puppyhood without it, but having the forums on this site available as a resource have made our lives AND his much better! Thank you!!