Thoughts on man being fined for using a Shock Collar

[Jennifer and Jack]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927

 

 

Apparently these are illegal in his Country. I personally am not a fan of shock collars or electric fences unless the owner really really knows how to use them and train their dog accordingly. Then I think they are fine as long as the dog learns quickly and is not continually shocked as in for training purposes

 

Do you think that someday they will be illegal to use in the US, do you think the humane society will step in?

 

http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927 

[Jennifer and Jack]

I am out on the vegan thing.. sorry charlie!!! :)

[ClarkP]

F, you are correct that there are trickle down costs to many human behaviors.  But we should never legislate to eliminate those behaviors based on that alone.  There MUST be some greater good for society.  Because if we did legislate against all things that have a cost to society, as you suggested, the government would force us all to be vegans.  The outrage!  I completely agree that this would be a huge elimination of personal liberty and would never support it.  But we KNOW that the poor diet of Americans adds more health-care cost to all of us in one year than all the seatbelt/helmet injuries in the course of history.  Yet we don't legislate diet.  We don't even ban cigarettes (nor should we) even though there is such a clear correlation between that habit and increased healthcare costs.

 

So to be consistent, we should not ban any behavior based on the fact that there might be a cost to society when there is no direct relationship - even if there is a demonstrable correlation.

 

The interesting thing to note is that liberties are often infringed on when it a minority group that takes part in that behavior (motorcycle helmet laws).  The majority who don't take part in that behavior have no problem taking away the freedom of others.  Yet if the majority behave in a way that has a much higher cost to society (poor diet) there will never be restrictions placed on those freedoms, no matter how high the cost to society.  No one wants to take away their own freedoms even if they harm themselves and add cost to society.  But these same people have no qualms about taking away freedoms from others doing something with far less cost to society.  This is where protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority is very important.

 

So if a "cost to society" is the only support for taking away freedom, that is not a good enough reason.  That is why helmet laws and the like are bad laws.  I don't want the government telling me what to eat any more than I want them telling me how to dress for any activity.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Interesting ideas. If only education were more effective it might preclude the push for some laws.

[ClarkP]

I completely agree education is the best use of money to shape behavior.

 

I mean, the direct cost to our society from the enforcement of "personal freedom" laws is astronomical.  Far higher than any any education program would ever be.

 

I don't do any drugs but I do know that it costs over a BILLION dollars a year to pay for the incarceration of marijuana users alone in the United States.  Can you imagine?  Why do we do this?

 

Why do we have a laws that takes away personal freedoms when those freedoms do not directly harm others?  From a purely economic view, it is just too costly.  From someone that believes in the freedoms granted by the Constitution, it's a major infringement on our liberty.

 

[puts away soapbox and vows not to derail dog topics ever again...]

[Adina P]

I use a choke chain in training and choking (trying to cut off my dog's air supply) is not how I use it.  Although, yes I've seen dogs wearing a choke chain out at the end of the leash pulling their owners and gasping for breath as they pull their owners<--an obvious wrong use of the tool.   Electronic collars can be used to give a mild electrical stimulus similar to strong static electricity as well as just a beep.  It's not commonly used to zap a dog into submission or fry a dog's neck which is the image I think most people get.  There are times when a strong stimulus might be needed for certain things but most dogs don't require that repeatedly.

[AndySharon BoomerShaynaMariner]

 

These collars can be programmed to only beep.  Also (at least our invisible fence collars) will beep as a warning before any shock is administered.  Our dogs respond to the beep only - no need to shock.

 

I have seen people use shock collars wrong but that should not prevent others from using them.  They are a tool.  I agree with Clark's comments, almost anything can be abused, and that is what must be stopped.

[Jennifer and Jack]

Adina, I agree with what you are saying, I personally have had a shock collar in my hands for the exact reason you are saying, Jack loves to run on the beach and he will loose his mind, or he used to, and not come back even when he had a reliable recall. I hated him being the only dog on the beach on a leash.

 

I know if I used a collar it would be done with the manor it was intended, I know a dog that all he has to hear is the beep which is the precursor warning to the actually shock and he will listen.

 

For me  ultimately it is not the right choice for now. I do not judge a reliable person, but I fear the same thing as others, people have a dog that does not behave and they want a quick fix so they get a shock collar. I spend hours and hours in Pet Smart because I train Jack there and I hear people say it all the time, no training, just a quick fix and I feel like unfortunately until society can prove to be more responsible as a whole with them, their needs to be some guidelines in place to protect animals from being tortured at the hands of stupid people, even if it infringes on a good dog parents rights and they have to swallow their pride and listen to the lecture.

 

It happens with babies, when I did my clinical s in nursing school, on the maternity floor, I remember doing the discharge paperwork for a doctor who just delivered a baby, I had to make them  watch a video on shaken baby syndrome, before the baby could be discharged to them. I am more then certain that this doctor could have probably taught more then one things to me about shaken baby syndrome but for the good of all babies it was a policy that all must be taught.. You can not discern who has common sense and who does not

[Nicky, Riley & Boris]

I live in Ireland, in Europe and in this country we do not have a legal gun/weapon culture.  Our police patrol without guns and only special forces can use arms or weapons.  We would have the same cultural ethos when it comes to using any methods with animals which would include giving a 'shock' as a training method as in this case.  I do not know one person who who not look with horror if I said I was considering using one of these devises.  I have never seen them on sale here and I don't actually know if they are legal or not.  

99% of people reading the article above in both the UK and Ireland would be on the side of the law and firmly against the man who used the collar as it would be seen as 'cruel' to use a method which 'hurt' the dog.

The trouble with the 'mis-use' of some of these things is that the consequences (as in the case of guns) are catastrophic.   I imagine that the mis-use of the shock collars is also horrible.    That is not to say everything is perfect here far from it.

 

To answer Karen & Jack as to why our rules re- ingredients in Pet foods are stricter than in the US I'd like to think it's because there are enforcable EU guidelines which are predicated on best possible practice and animal welfare.   We have some of the same brands but the ingredients here differ so even the rotten stuff is less rotten than the same stuff in the US!!!

[Carol Brand]

This collar isn't even a training collar.  My understanding is that it is the same as an electric fence collar that is very, very common in the US.  These collars are pretty effective at containing most dogs because the dogs learn that if they get too close to a boundary, they get shocked.   Note, these collars typically deliver beeping sounds that warn the dog about its proximity to the boundary.  Even the truly dense dogs figure it out pretty quickly.  You hear a beep you better get away from the fence.   Unfortunately for this owner, he has a smart BC and the dog clearly learned how to play the collar.  It learned that when the batteries get low it could hop the wall with impunity.

[ClarkP]

Oh those Border Collies!  Constantly attempting, and often succeeding, at outsmarting us humans.  I miss my dear Cass most every day.  She was an amazing dog.

 

I have shocked myself with a shock collar.  I have experienced all levels of stimulus.  I barely felt the lowest level, I was jolted by the highest level.  It was painful and got my attention.  Yet the "pain" was instantly gone once the stimulus was over.  It was very odd to experience something so "painful" but then have the sensation immediately be gone.  In any case, I didn't want to do it again.  When Adina wanted me to test a new shock collar that we bought, I didn't want to do it.  I told her to test it!  She came up with some lame "Oh... but I'm pregnant" excuse so I did it.  I'm a man, but I can change... if I have to... I guess.  :-) 

 

So I understand what it feels like.  And I would still use this deterrent to teach my dog that it is a bad idea to escape from my yard.  Because even though I know it hurts... you know what really hurts?  Getting hit by a car.  Or being sent to a shelter, or being homeless, or being shot by the neighbor whose chickens looked so tasty.

 

PS.  We bought our e-collar to train Rosco not to counter surf.  He began this habit at FOUR YEARS OLD and was sneaky and devious and un-catchable.  Adina researched this extensively and talked with several trainers on the best strategy to take.  Rosco has worn the e-collar for a few months now and has experienced ONE stimulus.  After wearing the collar for several weeks, we set him up with a web cam and some fresh baked goods on the counter.  We then left the house.  I watched from my computer while in my office (which is detached from our house.)  Adina drove away.  I gave him the stimulus when his front paws went up toward the counter.  He stopped what he as doing immediately and left the area.  He then came back by to sniff a few more times but did not attempt to steal anything.  Ten minutes later I "returned home" and acted like nothing has happened.  Rosco was super happy and excited to see me and did not connect the stimulus with me.  We have since set him up three more times in varying locations with such amazingly tempting things as sardines, leftovers, etc.  He has not taken the bait since.  We will continue to set him up for a while longer to "proof" his new no-counter-surfing choice.  But this has been very successful behavior modification.  I would do it again.  I would also be happy if he only feels that one shock in his whole life.

[F, Calla & Luca]

And I thought I was the only one who did this. I never made it to the highest level though. Luca was trained on recall with an collar but vibrate was enough for him.

[Sherri, Sophie, Winston, & Kitty]

interesting debate. I have no opinion, but just wanted to say thanks for sharing.