Use of Mood Altering Meds

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Murphy's dominance issues have escalated and now we aren't able to leave him alone in the house with our son.  Over the weekend our son, Tim, walked into the den where his dad and I were with both of the dogs.  Murphy jumped up and lunged after him barking and backing him out of the room.  I was right there so I was able to grab his collar and correct him, but our son (who has Down Syndrome and is pretty sensitive) was frightened.  For the rest of the weekend he didn't want to leave his bedroom.  So this is a new level and much more serious than Murphy's dog reactiveness.  I now have Tim doing all of Murph's feedings and whenever he walks into a room where Murph is he tells him to stay and gives the hand signal.  I think this is helping, but I do not trust Murph with Tim at all.  So we're onto Plan B.  We are going to start using an e collar for our training.  Murph is not consistently respecting my corrections when we meet other dogs and that needs to change.  I'm also thinking that he may not be getting enough full out running exercise.  We take him for an hour walk in lots of different places each day and then short potty trips, plus the treadmill if the weather isn't good.  His walks are mostly mental exercise because he is expected to walk right by my side.  So we're going to take him to state land a couple times a week and just let him run.  That may or may not help, but it's worth a try.  I haven't done it in the past because I was not 100% confident in his recall.  I have been keeping him within about a 12 ft radius on these off leash walks.  He will always come to me if he's fairly close.  The ecollar will give me more confidence in this situation.

So that brings me to the question of meds.  I am going to schedule an appointment for Murph with a Vet Behaviorist who practices out of the Specialty Hospital that we used when Guinness had Pancreatitis.  They do a full exam and blood work up before providing a diagnosis.  It will be good to rule out physical causes of Murphy's dominant behavior.  In a brochure that I got from the Behavior Clinic they talk about the use of psychotrophic meds.  They also talk about dietary changes and use of tryptophan for dogs who display dominance aggression.  I have been hoping to avoid this with Murphy, but perhaps it's time.  I think my biggest concern is potential side effects.  When people have side effects to these drugs they are able to talk about it but with a dog we would never know.  The meds could be making Murph feel anxious or uncomfortable and he wouldn't be able to let us know.  Anyway, I have lots of concerns but I'll never know for sure until I go and talk to this doctor.  I'm just wondering if anyone else is using these "mood changing" drugs with their Doodles.  I'd love to have some first hand feedback.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thank you, Doris.  I really could use a hug....and wine!

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Take F's advice. And remember meds can also make you fell better.  Maybe Murph will actually feel better.  He may feel cranky all the time and not be able to tell you.  Agression in the house to humans is not acceptable behavior and heaven knows you have put enough training in him.  Maybe Murph just needs to feel a little better.

I used an e-collar for a year with Roo.  My trainer emphasized every single week not to use it for aggression as it can increase agressive behavior in already aggressive dogs .  I was only taught how to use it to reenforce the leash voice and hand commands. I am certainly not an expert with an ecollar, I am only repeating what I have been told.    With Murph, please get really good help if you decide to use it.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thanks Maryann.  We will definitely have our trainer teach us how to use the ecollar.  We aren't going to use it in the house, just outside so that we can get Murph the exercise that we think he needs. 

[Nicky, Riley & Boris]

Oh boy, you certainly have an even bigger challenge now and Jennett has said it perfectly.  I think there are people here who have had to use drugs and if that is what you have to try then you should carry no guilt whatsoever. You are wonderful Mom full stop.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thanks, Nicky!

[Deanna & Desi & Cori]

As usual, I'm late to an important discussion, but I wanted to give you my two cents.  I'm sorry that another challenge has been thrown your way.  Hopefully, you'll find the best way to deal with the issue soon.  As far as use of medication, I don't have direct experience with dogs and meds, but I do have experience - both observational and first-hand - with people and drugs.  As a special education teacher, I have seen dramatic improvement in some of my ADHD kids when they found the right medication and dosage.  [I am not a "drugs cure all" kind of person and yes, I agree that ADHD is over-diagnosed and meds are not right for all kids, but that's a whole other discussion.]  In conversations with parents who were struggling with whether or not to give their kids medication for ADHD, I frequently offered this analogy:  If a doctor had just told them that their child had diabetes or cancer and that he/she needed daily insulin injections or chemotherapy, would they reject the treatment because they "don't want to give their child drugs"?  Of course not.  But as others have pointed out, mental/psychological issues continue to have a stigma attached!

Now for my first-hand experience:  Despite my open-mindedness regarding the use of medications for ADHD, anxiety, depression, etc. in OTHERS, when I began having panic attacks years ago, I fought the use of medication big time!!  I was tough - I could muscle through it!  Medication was for weaklings, not for me!  I think I was afraid that medication would alter what made me ME.  So wrong!  After almost 15 years of struggling with anxiety, I finally "caved in" and gave medication a try.  Clearly, my anxiety was related to a chemical imbalance in the brain - not weakness!  Now, I'm kicking myself that I didn't listen to my doctor and try meds years ago.

Murphy's agression is obviously NOT related to poor training, neglect, etc.  You have done everything possible to work with him, and while abundant exercise may help, if he's struggling with some "chemical imbalance" or "brain wiring" issue, medication (started low and slow) may be the best way to go.

Sending you love and positive thoughts... 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Deanna, thank you so much for this response.  I give you so much credit for being  open and I appreciate that you are sharing this to help me.  You really did make me realize (probably for the first time) that if Murph has a problem with how he's "wired" then no amount of training that I do is going to "fix" him.  I've never really thought of it that way.  I've just kept telling myself that if I keep working smarter and harder he will be okay.  If he has some sort of physical problem nothing I do would ever make him better.  I guess there's good and bad with that realization, but I'm going to focus on the good....the possibilities.  Again, thank you.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Jane, I am so sorry that you have another hurdle to take with Murphy.  Obviously he doesn't know how lucky he is to have you as his owner, but we do.  I appreciate how hard you have worked to 'train' Murph, but IMO his behaviors are more him and you have gone as far as you can with training.  You need to take this next step into medication and an e-collar if recommended.  Like, Deanna, I have worked with so many special needs children who needed meds for ADD/ADHD, OCD, etc.  Meds can make all the difference between a functioning person and one just hanging on day to day.  I applaud you for doing what you can to protect Tim, and keep Murphy.  You are still my hero!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thanks, Nancy!  Over the weekend I had kind of "lost it"....my dream the Murph could someday be okay was gone.  I'm getting it back now.  Everyone's support and confidence that our "strategy" is the right one is giving me that hope again.

[Sue & Lily Grace]

Keep the faith, you have had a lot of successes with Murph and this is just a new path to ensure more. Hugs.

[Jennifer and Jack]

I have nothing but love and respect for you. No advice, just admiration.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Oh Jen, that means a lot.  Thank you.