We NEED help & advice on bad behaviors!!!

[Michelle]

   Hi all! Let me start by saying we have spoken to our vet & started seeing a trainer once every 2 weeks for 1 hour personal time, our 3rd visit is next week, but I am putting in a call to her tomorrow, because of what happened today(which I will eventually get to!)

   I apologize for being so wordy, but I want anyone giving their advice to know & understand our situation. We have 2, 10 1/2 month old, male, neutered, 50 lb, medium sized, black, cross-back labradoodle brothers from the same litter which we LOVE and care for more than words can say. We met them at 5 weeks old & took them home at 8 weeks. They haven't had any medical issues besides 2 bouts of diarrhea, but they are in complete health & eat Natural Balance Chicken & Sweet Potato. They were crate trained and when they were 12 weeks old we brought them everywhere for puppy classes & socialization and we also had a lot of company in our home & they always behaved fine. Well...

  This spring we noticed at my 10 year old son's soccer games/practices that the dogs started getting hyper & anxious everytime a small child would run by, pulling on their leash, jumping & going crazy trying to get to the kids. I went from a regular collar to a harness which didn't help. Then, if we had company in our 1/2 acre fenced in yard, the dogs would run after the children & jump on them & nip & try to play very rough with them which can be really scary for the children! Which is what happened again today, but actually left teeth marks & bruising! This was after coming back from a long walk! The dogs were loose in the yard, but leashed so when the children got out of the pool, we were going to grab & hold the leashes, but 1 of the children got out un-noticed & they were so quick & went after her. They will also bark 1 shrill, surprise bark at adults to try & be intimidating. A worker at Petco asked if we adopted them assuming they were previously abused! We don't believe in hitting animals and I never wanted to use shock collars(which alot of people recently advised). We started uses the prong collars recently which has helped 1 of them learn to walk nicely on leash, but didn't even slightly hinder them when they see kids running! The trainer said they will eventually get tired of pulling & jumping w/the prong collars on, but they didn't!! Our trainer advised us not to let them on the couch or bed anymore, no more jumping up for hugs, no more greeting them or giving them positive attention when they are jumping, hyper or anxious. She told us to try a squirt of water & lemon juice in their mouth when they jump, I swear the dogs laughed at me when we tried that one! We switched to white vinegar which was working for 2 weeks, but didn't phase them around kids!  Which we have been following strictly for the past 3 weeks. She said tire them out before company comes..we did. I groom them myself so they've never been to the groomer & they flipped out when we left them for the 1st time at the vet when they were fixed in June. The trainer says their separation anxiety is bad when they are away from each other, me or my kids, so we should walk them seperately. We have had kids & strangers give them treats when they sit & behave.

   So, can anyone please tell me what the heck we've done wrong??? And is there anything that I am missing?? Giving one of them up is NOT an option!! I don't want to crate them when we have company. I want them to behave around all people, all the time and be able to bring them to outings w/us!! What do I do???? Please help!!

 

  

[Lesley, Wellington & Bingley]

Hi,

it really sounds like you are totally comitted to finding a solution so well done to you. Two young dogs, particulary siblings can be hard work! Can you ask your vet to refer you to a qualified Behaviourist? Your Trainer has made some good suggestions but it sounds like you may have reached a brick wall and may need some different strategies.

The obvious questions to ask are how well the dogs have been socilialised with people/kids and different environements up until now? other than family members/close friends have they been around kids at all?

It sounds like they view children as something fun to chase. They need to learn to be calm around children and to be able to turn their focus away from kids when in their presence. You would start with introducing them to children who totally ignored them and reward them for being calm.

gradually you would up the activity level of the kids so that EVENTUALLY the dogs were calm around active/running/noisy kids.

A Behaviour Counsellor would be able to advise you on the exact steps to be taken. I would certainly not advise using positive punishment (squirt guns/e-collars/prong collars) for this case.

These methods can form a fear association with the stimulus (children or potentially yourself) and that would be disasterous. A Behaviourist would be able to assess whether the dogs showed fear towards the children or were just wanting to play.

Wishing you the best of luck

x lesley

[Michelle]

Thank you Lesley! We are 150% committed! They go almost everywhere with us & have encountered so many different situations, places & people that's the part that confuses me! We did spoil them a bit & treated them more as children with too many hugs, kisses & petting all the time even when they were jumping on us & anxious. We have been working on those bad habits for 3 weeks now & have noticed alot of improvements in those areas. I am waiting for call backs from my vet & trainer now. Thanks for your help!

[Julie Mills]

Our Labradoodle used to be a bit like this when we got him....First thing I did was to teach my kids and their friends not to run around him. When he saw them running he would think it was time to retrieve them or play with them like other puppies.
We were firm with him from the start that he could not jump up on anyone. I don't think I would take them to watch children playing sports....that's kind of like torture for them....they see these fun little people running around and want to join in on the fun.

Like Lesley says start with calm kids that ignore them and gradually up the excitment level. Perhaps try teaching them the "leave it" command as well.

Best of luck to you. I can't imagine if I had brought home my Labradoodle's brother! I think it would have been much harder to train....partners in crime!

[Michelle]

They are definately partners in crime! They do behave much better separately. We do need to start the "leave it" command, I think that might help too. We are keeping them away from soccer too for the time being, you're right! They will even do this w/my kids sometimes, but my kids know how to stop them & diffuse the situation, the other kids go running & screaming(understandably) & it just makes them worse. I wish we would have been more strict on the no jumping rule from the beginning like you were! Thanks so much for your advice Julie!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Hi Michelle,
I remember your family and your Doodles from the Romp we had earlier this year. Your Doods are absolutely beautiful, and great dispositions....just VERY exuberant. I think it must be very difficult to be training both of them together. I'm so glad Guinness was through his training before we started with Murphy. But, I also remember how well they behaved with Deb (our trainer who was at the Romp). They were awesome when she worked with them for a little while. So, clearly they can be trained to behave well. I think that training....lots of training is your only answer. It's great that you're working with someone now. Is it possible that she would consider doing a home training session where you set up a situation where there are children around so she can see exactly how your guys react and offer advice? Your biggest challenge may be to get them to a point where they see you as their leader. I remember when I watched Deb work with them, it was clear that she was "in charge", and once they recognized that, they were fantastic. Good luck and please keep us posted.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

The reason I mentioned leadership is because somewhere on DK I read that when there are multiple dogs (especially from the same litter), it can be harder to get them to see you as "the boss"....they have a tendency to bond together. I've been looking for that discussion and I just can't find it, but I remember it was interesting and helpful. I'm hoping someone else will remember it....I couldn't find it in the multiple doodle group.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This is an article I've posted here on DK a few times that you may be thinking of. It's a trainer's discussion of the particular behavior/training problems that can occur with littermates.
http://buddyschance.typepad.com/positive_dog_training_blo/2007/04/a...

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Yes, it was #3 in this article that struck me. It made total sense to me that they might bond so closely that there would be issues with others in the family in a leadership role. The separation anxiety looks like it might apply to Michelle's Doods too. Thanks, Karen. I've been going crazy trying to find this.

[Michelle]

Thank you Jane & Karen! You just saved me a ton of time! I am horrible at searches! lol

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

Where in the world have I been ...... I've never seen this article posted! I can honestly confirm I did everything he mentions wrong! Oh well, love my baby girls anyway.

[Michelle]

Hi Jane!
How are you? I can't believe how big Murphy has gotten!! They are both still adorable!!

Thank you for responding! My trainer is actually a neighbor, & I know she does home visits so hopefully she will be able come over & see how they behave in their home environment. I was hoping we were going to work through some of their main issues in our private sessions & then start weekly obedience. You are definitly correct about who's in charge, they behave great for my trainer too, but not always for me. They will even ignore me sometimes, especially when they are worked up! Ugg! I will try & look for that discussion as well because I do believe that is a big part of our problem!

Thanks again, I will keep you all posted!!

[shelly]

Hi Michelle ~ I am going thru' a similar situation with my ONE dog... I can only imagine with two... we are seeking a behaviorist to help us I am in the process of interviewing a few now... hopefully I can share some methods soon... I posted in the forum t the beginning of the week and in the Doodle Whisperer Group... (In Search of a Behaviorist/Trainer...)If you check these out, maybe some suggestions people offered in these discussion can get you started! Good luck!