We NEED help & advice on bad behaviors!!!

[Michelle]

   Hi all! Let me start by saying we have spoken to our vet & started seeing a trainer once every 2 weeks for 1 hour personal time, our 3rd visit is next week, but I am putting in a call to her tomorrow, because of what happened today(which I will eventually get to!)

   I apologize for being so wordy, but I want anyone giving their advice to know & understand our situation. We have 2, 10 1/2 month old, male, neutered, 50 lb, medium sized, black, cross-back labradoodle brothers from the same litter which we LOVE and care for more than words can say. We met them at 5 weeks old & took them home at 8 weeks. They haven't had any medical issues besides 2 bouts of diarrhea, but they are in complete health & eat Natural Balance Chicken & Sweet Potato. They were crate trained and when they were 12 weeks old we brought them everywhere for puppy classes & socialization and we also had a lot of company in our home & they always behaved fine. Well...

  This spring we noticed at my 10 year old son's soccer games/practices that the dogs started getting hyper & anxious everytime a small child would run by, pulling on their leash, jumping & going crazy trying to get to the kids. I went from a regular collar to a harness which didn't help. Then, if we had company in our 1/2 acre fenced in yard, the dogs would run after the children & jump on them & nip & try to play very rough with them which can be really scary for the children! Which is what happened again today, but actually left teeth marks & bruising! This was after coming back from a long walk! The dogs were loose in the yard, but leashed so when the children got out of the pool, we were going to grab & hold the leashes, but 1 of the children got out un-noticed & they were so quick & went after her. They will also bark 1 shrill, surprise bark at adults to try & be intimidating. A worker at Petco asked if we adopted them assuming they were previously abused! We don't believe in hitting animals and I never wanted to use shock collars(which alot of people recently advised). We started uses the prong collars recently which has helped 1 of them learn to walk nicely on leash, but didn't even slightly hinder them when they see kids running! The trainer said they will eventually get tired of pulling & jumping w/the prong collars on, but they didn't!! Our trainer advised us not to let them on the couch or bed anymore, no more jumping up for hugs, no more greeting them or giving them positive attention when they are jumping, hyper or anxious. She told us to try a squirt of water & lemon juice in their mouth when they jump, I swear the dogs laughed at me when we tried that one! We switched to white vinegar which was working for 2 weeks, but didn't phase them around kids!  Which we have been following strictly for the past 3 weeks. She said tire them out before company comes..we did. I groom them myself so they've never been to the groomer & they flipped out when we left them for the 1st time at the vet when they were fixed in June. The trainer says their separation anxiety is bad when they are away from each other, me or my kids, so we should walk them seperately. We have had kids & strangers give them treats when they sit & behave.

   So, can anyone please tell me what the heck we've done wrong??? And is there anything that I am missing?? Giving one of them up is NOT an option!! I don't want to crate them when we have company. I want them to behave around all people, all the time and be able to bring them to outings w/us!! What do I do???? Please help!!

 

  

[Michelle]

Hi Shelly!

Sorry to hear of your problems too! It is so frustrating!! I haven't been on here much over the summer, so I feel like I lost touch with everyone! I hope you are well besides these issues!

I will look up your post too! We need all the help we can get!!

Thank you!!

[shelly]

Michelle - I didn't want to make it sound like I thought YOU needed a behaviorist by any means... I just thought that possibly someone may have mentioned different things for YOU to try, before you got to MY place.... sorry and good luck!!!

[Michelle]

Shelly,
Lol!! I didn't take it that way at all, I knew you what you meant. I appreciate any and all advice I get, ACCEPT someone who would tell me to re-home one of them, because that just isn't gonna happen! I was doing alot of research about raising littermates yesterday & came across a trainer named Ed Frawley he answered numerous emails from people with 2 puppies having problems & his answer was get rid of one, for almost every question! I was horrified! But, back to the subject, thank you, no apology necessary!

[Adina P]

There's nothing wrong with your dogs...they are just bratty teenagers who need training.  And the 'bratty' part isn't personal...many dogs are bratty before the age of 2 and some afterwards too.  You already love them...so what they need NOW to BE the well behaved, obedient, trustworthy adult dogs you want them to be is not 'more' love but strict obedience training.  That has to become EXTREMELY important to you because it will take CONSIDERABLE daily effort to work them each, separately, in many environments.  I don't think you need a 'behaviorist' -- they don't have major behavior problems...they are simply not trained and need training UNTIL they have shown themselves to be consistenlty reliable in the situations in which you need reliability.  Every untrained dog will have a different assortment of undesireable behaviors...but your doods' behaviors aren't extreme, in my opinion.  Additionally it is not umcommon for two high energy littermates to feed off each other's behavior and escalate things.  That is why they need to be trained as individuals, separately not together.'

[Michelle]

Thank you Adina for your time & opinions! It is comforting to hear that their behaviors are age appropriate for dogs who haven't had any formal training (until recently!) Before we picked them up at 8 weeks, I read & read & read and really thought I knew what I was doing, but I was too easy going and I have learned that I wasn't the expert I thought I was! I really needed these opinions & advice today to get me moving in the right direction with a motivated, positive attitude! I love having DoodleKisses, it is really such a resourceful, positive place to come for help from lots of great people!! Thank you Adina!!!!!

[Adrienne Shapiro]

Michelle,
I know what it is like to be at your wits end. I was lucky when I found a trainer here in Rhode Island who is our Dog Whisperer. He has a national dog radio show, he travels all over the continent, and is FABULOUS. You can call in, you can email him now and listen on SAT. He does travel to where you live...he does board and train...he has his own dog pack at his facility..he donates lots of his time to rehabilitate dogs that are going to put down because of aggressive behavior (his favorite thing to do )....Anyway...here is his website... http://whatwouldjeffdo.com/" target="_blank">http://whatwouldjeffdo.com/ It will tell you when and what station nationwide the radio broadcast is and how everyone can call in, write and listen..
THEY NEED TO BE TAUGHT SEPARATELY. I know, he would say that the dogs are saying that they are alpha over the kids, they need to learn calming skills, the PLACE command, with a prong collar and leash, then when they have all that solidly learned, add the kids as distractions and they should NOT break command. If you go to Jeff Gellman's web site, he teaches you directly these commands. I hope this helps...
I hope I was allowed to give out that information....I think the world of this guy....he trained, in board and train, 2 of my doodles..For training tips go to his website at ..www.solidk9training.com
adrienne

[Michelle]

Adrienne,

Thank you for this information!! I will look him up today! We actually bought the pups from a breeder in Rhode Island. He sounds like a very talented man! Thanks so much for your help! I will keep you updated! I love these dogs so much, it broke my heart to see them behave like that! I was in tears writing last night! Hopefully with all the wonderful help, advice & info I have received I will be seeing well behaved dogs soon!! Lots of work ahead of me!!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Yes, lots of work, but I know how loving and committed you and your family are to your Doodles. We need to start thinking about a Fall romp here in CT.

[Michelle]

Jane,
Thank you, they are our babies!! A Fall romp sounds great, we all had such a wonderful time at the last one! Let me know what I can do!

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

Michelle, I had a bad day too with my dogs and I was glad to read this post. I have been too easy going about training also, but after being pulled into doggie daycare and having them act like insane nuts at the pool, I decided, like you, that I am going to get more serious about training. Some days they just make me so proud, but not today. Hopefully, I was not on a monitor at the doggie daycare pool area and if I was, I hope no one can read lips :) It was nice to see all of the advice you received in response to this post and all of it was so helpful. We do have our work cut out for us, but we can do it !!

[Michelle]

Laurie,
It is nice to come on here & realize you are not alone! I have been really good w/all the trainer's homework, but I know it is going to take more than I expected when we first started. But I am even more motivated now & I am so happy my post helped you out too!!!! The people on here are so wonderful & they have given us the help & encouragement we need to get our (mine & yours) dogs the manners they need!! Thanks so much!!

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Sounds to me like you have done everything just right. They sound exactly like my black australian labradoodle, Roo. His full brother, Tigger, is younger and much more mellow but really can get going with Roo's encouragement.

The good news is that they will get much much better. The bad news is that it may take awhile. Roo is 21/2 and consistently better. Not perfect, but better. They are not being agressive or mean they just are playing in a perfectly normal older puppy way.

I have had quite a few dogs and some granddogs too, and Roo has definitely been a challenge. He just gets sooo excited!

Things that have helped me.

1. Hooking Roo to my waist on his prong collar and I do not use my hands to touch his leash. To get the pinch, if necessary, I turn quickly in the opposite direction and walk that way. When he hits the heel or close position he gets praise and a treat. There is a big difference to a dog between hitting resistance like a tie down or a waist ( I am 64, bad back and 5'4") and just my body turning acts as a tie down. Seems weird but really works and saves my back. I am able to walk both dogs together with this arrangement after spending about 4 - 6 weeks walking them separately.


2. When on leash with prong collar and just standing still, put your dog in a sit and then stand on the leash with only a little slack. Again acts as a tie down, much easier on you and has a totally different effect on dog. You are not hassled and the energy does not start zinging back and forth between you escalating your dogs excitement. Soccer practice attendence should a great place for them to learn that they can lay quietly with activity nearby. Tie them to your waist on a short leash, just enough for them to lay down comfortably. Or tie them to a tree and sit very near. If they "down stay" well use that too with the tie down and give a treat every once in awhile, when they are quiet. No attention for fussing. As kids approach teach them how to turn away ( not move away) if the dog does not stay "four on the floor".

3. With both of the above you need lots of high value treats and anticipation. Watch for everything, possible sources of excitement; kids, dogs whatever juices him and watch your dog's body language. Distract him with a high value treat place right on his nose. When he shifts his focus to the treat he gets it. Then he has to focus and take one step before getting it. then two steps. Before long you will see him see a child and look at you for a treat. Yeah! You are half way there.

4. Invest in a few tie downs. ( I really resisted doing this - what an idiot I was, it made life so much easier.) Tie downs are anchored firmly to something, preferably a stud in the wall or floor or outside you can loop around a tree. What you hook to these places is a large bright metal "b...." ( cannot think of the name -darn it)available at hardware stores. It looks similar to the end of the leash. It opens to accept the handle end of an ordinary leash. When guests arrive dogs are already each on their tie down with chew toy of high value - kong, bully, whatever. When each is calm release him from tie down, leaving his leash on. This may not happen for quite a few visits. As long as he stays calm he stays loose . At the very first sign of excitement - back to the tie down. Teach one dog at a time. Enlist your children to help you teach this. They should at first ignore him when he is released and then ramp up the excitement (giggle and scream and move quickly) until all unwanted behaviors are eliminated. When you return your dog to tie down - no talking to him at all- like returning him to a stay position. He is not to get any attention for unwanted behavior. If he whines (probably) barks (maybe) no attention and this includes eye contact. Attention in any form is a reward. Provide a chew toy or two (think of it as a pacifier or blankie - not a reward).
5. Ahhhh, you say, but how do I get the dog who is having a fine timein the backyard back to the tie down. With a distraction/intervention, a firm name, come command, and a high value treat and praise for coming.My dogs thought the spray bottle was a game. Heck they think a full squirt with a garden hose is a game. Use several different interrupters/ distractors so they do not get used to one. Use it a the first signof excitement. Here are some that work for me: a very high pitched "aaaay" sound, a thrown rolled up hand towel fastened with rubber bands ( you don't have to get their rump with it but the closer the better - hitting is best) bonking with an empty paper towel roll ( the kids can carry these around for awhile a bonk when dogs jump up - no teasing), slapping a magazine or book loudly on a flat surface. Right as you do this say "no" or "leave it" or whatever you use. Do not say it after or as you are doing it.
These distractors should at least get a head turn toward you. As he looks say his name, come and back quickly away.
If he comes, reward and put him in down stay or return him to tie down. This whole thing works better if they can run with long ropes attached to their prong collars. If he hits the collar as you say no and provide a distractor/interrupter, they will both learn very quickly. Unfortunately because they are young and easily excited they will also forget quickly.

Lastly think of pups as the youngest children in the group. Your children did not socialize in one day, one week or even one year. Every year they are able to control their anger, excitement, frustration, whatever a little better. Dogs like children and come in many temperments. Some, like Tigger, will just wander off for a nap when they have had enough. Others like my Roo and your two need Mom to intervene when they get excited and give them some calm down time.

This was really long. But it does work. It has worked with Roo who has embarassed me to almost to tears so many times over the past two plus years. But just yesterday we walked by a camp bus busstop with about 6 or 7 little girls. Roo was leashed on my right and Tigger on my left. I never touched the leashes, but I did have treats in my hands. I was so proud of Roo he "sat" right in front of the girls as they oohed and aahed. He never jumped, licked, mouthed, even once, with no reminders. He was, however, wiggling so hard in his excitement that his whole body was going too fast to actually keep his butt on the ground - there were about 3 inches of air between Roo's tuche and the sidewalk, but he was goooooood! I was so proud. It's been a long time coming and sometimes more backwards than forwards.

So chin up - you haven't done anything wrong it just takes lots of practice and some time and patience.