New age methods...

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

This is bound to be a hot one.
Before I begin I am throwing in the disclaimer that I do infact follow the modern reccommended methods of dog rearing (for the most part)...I use positive reinforcement like "the books" say to do.

But.... (here is the controversial part)

I dont know how much of the new modern methods are actually psychobabble intended to idiot-proof the general public to protect themselves from the dodo's of the world who will do things to an extreme. For example the breastfeeding thing is pushed so hard here. We all know it is baby's ideal food but I also know for a fact from an insider in the Northern Health Authority here that it also tends to help prevent lazy, ignorant, impoverished mothers of questionable class from making formula in an unhygienic way, from substitutuing cows milk, or even kool-aid in the bottle. Also in third world countries where the water source is contaminated the baby always has fresh, healthy breast milk. But a responsible intelligent person of resource nourishing a baby with a good quality formula is just as good. If one chooses to breastfeed, fantastic! But they shouldnt be strong armed into it with propoganda meant to save babies that actually need to be saved. I am not an indigent, transient, impoverished unintelligent person who needs to be pushed by nipple nazi's to breastfeed my baby. I am capable of nourishing him by the method of my own choice. Be it breast or bottle.

Then there is the "spanking debate"....no need to say more.

Now what I am getting at in the long roundabout way is that I dont know if I, truly in my heart, believe this new age method of "the dog doesnt have a memory so you cant reprimand her for peeing/pooping in the house unless you catch them in the act". I tell you ladies a part of me thinks this is baloney! The "old way" was to grab the dog rub his nose in it and out the door they went! I think those dogs got housebroken faster. Personally I am too much of a softie to be that harsh but I tell you it seems they really did get it faster.

And I dont believe the memory is as short as books say. If I come into the room and see pee on the floor all three dogs are looking at me guilty! (Even the old one who hasnt peed in a dozen years - lol) LOL So they know it is not kosher. If I walk towards the puddle of pee saying "who did this????" I will see little butts scurry away. They always know exactly what I am talking about .

I do show it to Kaela (praying I got the right dog - lol) and say "this is Duties! Duties NOT in the house" Then I put her out. I have done this with Abby as well. I dont just ignore it.

So it leads me to wonder how much of it is publicity to stop people from beating the tar out of their pets. To idiot proof the general public. To stop them from abusing their dog. Face it, no authority will ever say it is OK to spank a child for fear that people will take it as a licence to beat the tar out of them. And no public authority will ever say it is OK to reprimand a pet for fear people might take it as their right to abuse the pet.

I think it is OK to give the dog a mild reprimand for "duties" after the fact, and I think they do infact remember doing it.

[Sandy]

Brave of you to start this topic! I have a friend who didn't buy into at all the gentle dog training way. If the dog had an accident, its nose got rubbed in it, and out it went. It was not allowed on carpet, and I'm not sure how they reinforced this, but that dog never went on carpet. Sometimes I think I take it easier on Toby than I ever did on my kids.....in other words, unless I catch him in the act, he never suffers consequences of his misdeeds. With kids they are punished even it was something they did a while ago.

Along this line, Toby have lost his rec room freedoms because of recurring pee/poo accidents down there. There's no reason for it, the carpet was cleaned etc. Henceforth and forevermore he is and will be on a leash if he comes downstairs with us.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

Yes. And I know our parents had a heck of an easier time with us as children than I do with my own children. LOL. I walked the line Man! All my mom had to do was give me "the look" and I was on it. Eyes forward, no giggling in the church pew. LOL ! Just "the look". I was well behaved! I never mouthed off. I cleaned up after myself. I was obedient! Kids these days arent the same because we are too soft on them. Or because we breastfed them (one of the two - lol). I wasnt breastfed by my mother, I was both healthy and obedient. hehehe

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

My mother didn't breastfeed me, but I breastfed my daughter. We are both lovely, lol.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

Yep! LOL

[Adrianne Matzkin]

Back in the day - your parents gave you a good whack and you KNEW better the next time. As they had kids it seems that these parents want to be a 'friend'. Then they try to set rules and their 'friend' tells them to F@%*k off!!! My mother still can give me 'the look' and I stop in my tracks and I am well beyond the age of fearing that look. I raised my daughters somewhat the same way. They were rules that could never be broken and those that were flexible and they pretty much stayed 'in line'.
Today with them 25+ and 28, we ARE friends.

I raised my dogs the same way. They will not walk me down the street, they will not beg for food either at the table or anywhere else. As a child we rubbed noses in accidents. Today I make sure that they are rare. Their accidents as puppies are MY fault, If I catch Charli in the act, I give her a big NO and take her outside. She knows she was wrong by the way she stays away from me for a short while and then goes into her please forgive me routine.

Will I hit her - NEVER. Will I give her my mother's screech - Oh Yeah!! That she remembers.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Well, I don't agree with putting their noses in it. I personally think that is cruel, and to me, you would be conveying the point that pooping itself is what is bad, when what you want to get across to them is that it is the place they chose to put the poop that is wrong. What is learned by putting their nose in poop, except that it stinks, lol?
I have never had a problem housebreaking a dog, and I did it very quickly and very young. And none of that "Rover hasn't has an accident in the house in two weeks." My dogs didn't have accidents in the house ever, period.
Yes, I do think you have to get the point across that "duties" do NOT go in the house. If you find an accident after it has happened, you can show it to the dog and say "What's this? Did you do this?" It isn't necessary to yell or push their face in it. They know by your tone that you are displeased.
There are two parts to successful housebreaking; one part is to teach them NOT to do their business in the house, and the other part is to teach them where they should do it. That's where the 'catching them in the act" business comes into it. You startle them in the middle of doing it in the house. Your reaction gives them the message: "Oh uh, I'm doing something wrong".
Then you get them outside, where if you're lucky, they finish what they started. You praise & treat them. Now your reaction is giving them the message, "I did something good." When it's done in proper sequence, and the dog can connect it to what is happening at the time, the message to the dog is "Oh! I get it! Potty inside, bad. Potty outside, good!"
What helps is if your puppy was with his mother until you got him, in an indoor environment with clear demarcation between the living/sleeping area, and the defecating area: in those circumstances, the mother teaches the pups to keep their living area clean. If they are living in cages or kennels or barns or running loose before they come to you, where their entire world is one big toilet, it is much harder. A dog who is used to living in a clean environment wants to keep it clean. It also helps when the breeder has started them on crate training, paper training, or actual housebreaking. I was lucky (or maybe smart) in that all of my dogs came from those backgrounds.
I have a feeling that Jackdoodle was housetrained with the nose-in-the-poop, rolled-up newspaper method. He will hold it forever, which is not necessarily a good thing, and will only poop when on a walk. This is really inconvenient in bad weather. When I first got him, he was so afraid of making a mistake, he went 36 hours without eliminating. He was also extremely fearful of long cylindrical objects like cucumbers, and cowered when someone was holding one. He now understands that no one here is going to hit him, but he is still "anal" about going potty, lol.
So my advice is, please don't be like Jackdoodle's former purchaser and make your dog think there is something wrong with going potty anywhere. Please, give corrections, but don't use physical methods to get your point across.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

I agree. DH's dad was very harsh about housebreaking. The dog was housebroken alright - to the point that he would hold his bladder when they went on the boat and refuse to go...he would be at the point of exploding, and still wouldnt let it go. They had to stop taking him because with the large boat they couldnt just go to shore and Dh would have to row Snuffy to shore on the orange peel to go to the bathroom.

My dogs arent afraid to pee or poo in front of me. I wouldnt brutalize them over an accident. But at the same time they definitely have memory. And that is the part I disagree with when it comes to "the books." Claiming they dont remember 5 seconds later. Hogwash. Heck, I remember when Bailey was young I would come home to him literally looking guilty, ears back sulking/moping and literally having to search the house to find out what he was feeling guilty about. So for him to have that sulk on the moment I arrived, and me eventually finding a dried up turd somewhere, he definitely had a 'memory' and knew what he did.

[Adina P]

I don't think it's an issue of not remembering exactly. Of course they have memories...but I don't think their memories are necessarily like ours. We can sit and replay moments in our minds with fondness or sadness, wax nostalgic, tell stories about events in our lives, etc. But I just don't think dogs have quite that same capability.

In fact even if they did not remember themselves eliminating ... I'm pretty sure they can tell the diff between their urine and another dog's. I think the point is that just because they may know it's THEIR poop/pee...doesn't mean that an owner reprimanding them 5 hours later is really going to make them understand precisely why the owner is upset. I don't think dogs feel 'guilt.' I DO think dogs don't enjoy being reprimanded, and will put on submissive moves to appease the owner...but it has nothing to do with 'feeling guilty', 'feeling bad', or any other such thing that mimics 'oh shoot I really messed up and feel terrible I did wrong' that humans might experience. They may not have wanted to go in the house and whined a bit before going because it wasn't comfortable for them to poop/pee in there.

Unfortunately all we can do is speculate about what dogs feel and think. Sometimes we may be right...other times way off. I don't think they go through such complex feeling bad/guilty emotions. But they may avoid doing things that upset us because it is unpleasant for them when you ARE upset with them.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

"I DO think dogs don't enjoy being reprimanded, and will put on submissive moves to appease the owner...but it has nothing to do with 'feeling guilty', 'feeling bad', ....

I am pretty sure when I came home and Bailey was glum and guilty looking it wasnt posturing - or 'submissive moves to appease me'. I may be totally incorrect but I truly believe the poop happened at the wrong place/wrong time and he honestly felt guilty hours later. I wasnt in the habit of getting sharply angry with him for accidents so he had no need to posture. When I found the dried up turd I disposed of it with no show. But heck I wouldnt have even found it if I hadnt known something was up by the look on his face.

[Kathy Wilson]

I think anyone who would use the "rub their nose in it" tactic, should have it done to them. I hereby volunteer to be the rub-ER!

[Kathy Wilson]

Just a thought........how long does it take a human child to become potty trained? Quite awhile! My mom never sweated the issue, 'knowing' that we'd likely get there before kindergarten. Why can't we be this relaxed about our dogs? If we stick to the program, our fur kids will eventually get it. Okay, back to my school work.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Easier to change a diaper than to clean the rug, lol.