Should you have to have visited a breeder in order to discuss them on Owner Recommended Breeders?

[F, Calla & Luca]

Many good breeders are not listed in the Owner Recommended Breeder Group. This may be because people don't get around to doing this but it may also be because they have not visited the breeder but instead they have had the puppy shipped as I did. Since people are able to comment about good and bad experiences in blogs and discussions without the visit requirement it seems inequitable. I realize the importance of screening out back yard breeders or puppy mills but I think other criteria may be used to do this. I have followed a number of breeder website over the years and I feel confident that I can say that some of them are excellent breeders who raise the puppies in their own homes, or use a guardian program, do health testing which they publish, etc. Breeders are kind enough to offer us their expertise on the site and advertise and we could not exist as site or pet owners without them. We need to offer the breeders our support when it is deserved. I know the breeders monitor or get feedback from this site. I had a breeder, from whom I did not end up buying a puppy, contact me to complain about some comments that I had made on the site, which had been commented on by potential buyers. The comments were mostly positive and none were, I thought, derogatory. This breeder requested that I remove my comments but I believe in freedom of honest speech.

[Julie B.]

I think in order to adequately cover the positives and negatives about a breeder you should have to visit them in person... a couple of times. I also would like clarification of a "backyard breeder". Is this someone who decides to breed their doodle and who isn't technically in "the breeding business"? I have gotten all my doodles from what appear to be reputable breeders but they have been large and have a number of litters on the ground at any one time. I am beginning to think that a backyard breeder who has one or two litters every 2 years or so would be preferable especially if they have all of the other requirements such as health testing, good breeding stock etc. I would think these breeders do it because they love their dogs and the puppy experience more than the money. I really get the feeling that due to the trendiness of owning doodles the breeders have become too greedy and are having too many litters at one time and charging exorbitant fees for their dogs. Just my opinion.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

BYB, or "backyard breeder" is a derogatory term meaning someone with no real knowledge of breeding who breeds dogs just to make money, usually beginning with their own pets. It usually implies a lack of testing of the parent dogs, a lack of quality care of the dogs, and a lack of understanding of which dogs should or shouldn't be bred; the only criteria is to bring in some extra $$$. There may be multiple litters and breeds or not.
A small breeder who only breeds one or two litters a year but does it with impeccable knowledge and care is usually referred to as a "hobby breeder".

[F, Calla & Luca]

We've had several discussions on the prices of doodles. I think backyard breeder, at least to me, indicates sort of unprofessional breeding without health testing of the parents, etc. The family and the puppies may be fine but no real way of knowing.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

A hobby breeder is a small scale breeder who health tests dogs, cares about the genetics of the parents, socializes puppies, gets the appropriate vet and medical care for the pups etc. They raise 1 or 2 litters per year.
Backyard Breeders are people who breed their dogs with little thought to genetics, health, socialization. I would be especially leery of a Backyard Breeder with doodles. The reason for this is because doodles are not a breed per se, many unknown combos are called doodles. I think some of the members here have been quite surprised by what their dogs become - or don't become. And they paid - perhaps less than from a known breeder, but way too much for an American Standard Breed (which means mutt). We have a mixed breed dog we got from a rescue as a puppy - he is actually Australian Shepherd and ???? As he grew, the vet and groomer said he is a lab mix - who knew. He looks very little like his mother, the full blooded Australian Shepherd. We might have bought this dog thinking he was an Australian Shepherd puppy or at least would look somewhat like his mother - not! I would have hated to pay big bucks for a dog that isn't at all what I paid for, and had health or personality issues.
I do think a small breeder or hobby breeder has more of an opportunity to socialize pups just because of sheer numbers, however excellent breeders - like some I have "met" through doodlekisses make a point of doing everything possible to create a wonderfully healthy, well-socialized puppy and by being a bigger breeder, they might have more experience and knowledge.
I do think that if at all possible, one should visit the breeder so that you can see things with your own eyes.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Another thing good about DK is that if you haven't been able to visit the breeder chances are good that someone on the site has and and you can get some feedback. In my case, my first breeder in Washington state was the President of the Australian Labradoodle Club of America and was known to many breeders, etc. The second breeder was small but had family that breeds labradoodles, the sire was well known as were the parents of the dam. I felt confident about both breeders from what I read about them and from speaking to them

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I would disagree with the statement that "Breeders ... offer us their expertise on the site and advertise and we could not exist as site or pet owners without them". I have existed as a pet owner since 1977 without the "expertise" of the breeders on this site or anywhere else, lol. Certainly, we don't need their advertising in order to exist, to be good pet owners or even to obtain wonderful doodles. (The ads are not revenue producing for DK...they're Google ads) And as much as our breeder/members contribute, it's not their breeding expertise that's of the most value to the DK community...it's the camaraderie & friendship between all of us that makes DK what it is. I'm sure it could exist just fine without any of us, including breeders.
Back in the days before the internet, many of us bought wonderful dogs from wonderful breeders through word of mouth, vet references, and so forth. That's still the way I would do it today if I were looking for a puppy. There is no owner recommendation in the world that would entice me to purchase my next life's companion sight unseen.
With all due respect to the many excellent breeders on this site, much of the "expertise" that I've seen posted here and on other sites by doodle breeders is not all that expert...particularly when it comes to advice about what to do for ear infections or other ailments, and what to feed. Just because someone put two dogs together and got a litter of puppies out of it, doesn't make them an "expert" on anything. (The fact that they sold said puppies for thousands of dollars might make them an expert on marketing, but that's not the point of this debate.)
I can understand your desire to want to praise your breeder publicly, despite the fact that you haven't visited the facility, and that this seems unfair to you in terms of posting a discussion in the Owner Recommended Breeders Group. And I agreewith you that it's unfair for people to post breeder recommendations in blogs and discussions...breeder recommendations should be kept out of blogs and discussions, which I try to say whenever they appear. (Most objectionable to me is what my friend Lynne calls "posting a litter disguised as a story", lol.) But there's some history behind the rule in the ORB Group, I believe, which originates before Doodle Kisses existed.
On another doodle forum, I believe the first doodle forum that existed, there was a well-known breeder who posted quite often and seemed very knowledgable. Many people naturally looked upon her as an ethical & responsible breeder, and recommended her. I don't know the exact circumstances of how the truth came out, but suffice it to say that none of the forum members had ever actually seen her facility, and when it was finally revealed that she was in fact a small-scale puppy mill, people were shocked, outraged and dismayed.
I know that Adina was around when this debacle took place, and I believe this is one of the reasons for the rule that you must have visited a breeding facility before recommending it in the group. We can't really know what goes on anywhere, and some people talk a very good game, but the walk doesn't match up to the talk. I also think I know which doodle breeders are doing things right and which ones aren't, but I've been fooled by a couple, too. I would not be able to comfortably tell a prospective owner that I was absolutely sure about a breeding program without having seen it with my own eyes...I also think it's very important to meet the parents, advice that dog experts have been giving people for dozens of years. Look how many people were taken in by Skip Eckhart & Almost Heaven, and his beautiful photos of a country cottage.
Anyway, I'm sure I'm in the minority, but that's the other side of the debate, for what it's worth.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I wanted to add that many doodle forums discourage public recommendations of breeders along with derogatory statements about specific breeders. It's usually very easy to leave someone a message or comment less publicly if you want to praise a breeder or warn against one.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I'm glad to hear the other side for there is no debate without it. Also, these are opinions so there is no right or wrong.I have no idea whether you're in the minority since so far few people have responded. I am wondering about the advertising. I just accessed DK through Yahoo and got the same ads. I'd think, but I could be wrong,Karen, Google must share revenue with the site in order to display their ads. How else could this site support itself. I don't think the DK store would be sufficient to pay for the server and whatever. And why would DK allow the ads. So much for the site. I don't know much about websites.
What I meant as pet owners not being able to exist without breeders applied more to specific situations like mine. Where would those of us who wanted later generation labradoodles find them without breeders? I also realize there are some novice breeders who know less than even I do. However, I appreciate the advice and expertise of a general or specific kind that some breeders have and have contributed to this site. April Cliber, Kendra Vestal and Barb Gaffney come to mind, although there certainly may be those I'm omitting. I didn't post this debate in order necessarily to praise my breeders; they seem to be doing fine without that . I also realize I was fortunate to get such wonderful dogs. Arranged marriages, like selecting a life companion sight unseen do sometimes work out! It was to debate the issue and I did not know about the incident with the breeder you mention above. That's the kind of thing you find out when you discuss an issue.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The ads not being the point of the discussion, I'll try not to sidetrack your debate with much talk on that, but I believe the ads are what sponsors the network, not DK specifically. The ads are what pays for the network, and the more "hits" a particular site gets, the more the host network (ning) rewards the site. That's how the site supports itself. DK has no choice as to "allowing" the ads. You have a ning site, you have Google ads, period. I know there is a very minimal charge to start up a ning site...$50 for basic use, if memory serves, and there are no ongoing charges except for options you choose to have...smilies, etc. The Google ads are not placed by our member breeders, regardless. You'll notice that the ads change with the topic of the discussion...it's Google magic.
To address what is one of the topics here, "What I meant as pet owners not being able to exist without breeders applied more to specific situations like mine. Where would those of us who wanted later generation labradoodles find them without breeders?"
Of course we need breeders to get any dog, higher gen or not...I'm just addressing the fact that we don't need recommendations from strangers in public forums to get them.

[Adina P]

(Don't want to side-line this discussion, but just to clarify.... We pay a substantial monthly fee to run DK as it is currently. The Google ads generate revenue for DK, but given the monthly fee it ends up being more like revenue sharing. However, we don't have control over the specific ads that pop up on the Google ads because Google runs ads based on page content. So we don't make revenue from breeder members posting ads).

[F, Calla & Luca]

Thanks for clarifying this Adina. I hope you realize i was not at all questioning your integrity but merely trying to support the breeders. Sometimes I feel like they get criticized unjustly and I do feel whether directly or not they help support the site and allow us to have wonderful pets.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I think if you haven't physically been somewhere, you can not recommend it. I agree with Karen on that. Puppy mills partially get away with what they do because of their dishonest advertisements on the internet. It is so easy to fool honest people; we just assume others are telling the truth.
I appreciate the information I have gotten on this site, sometimes from breeders as breeders, but most often from experienced dog owners (and some of these are breeders too), members who, for their own reasons, are experts in an area like health, nutrition, and sometimes members who have some experience with a specific thing, or viewpoint that didn't occur to me.