Should you have to have visited a breeder in order to discuss them on Owner Recommended Breeders?

[F, Calla & Luca]

Many good breeders are not listed in the Owner Recommended Breeder Group. This may be because people don't get around to doing this but it may also be because they have not visited the breeder but instead they have had the puppy shipped as I did. Since people are able to comment about good and bad experiences in blogs and discussions without the visit requirement it seems inequitable. I realize the importance of screening out back yard breeders or puppy mills but I think other criteria may be used to do this. I have followed a number of breeder website over the years and I feel confident that I can say that some of them are excellent breeders who raise the puppies in their own homes, or use a guardian program, do health testing which they publish, etc. Breeders are kind enough to offer us their expertise on the site and advertise and we could not exist as site or pet owners without them. We need to offer the breeders our support when it is deserved. I know the breeders monitor or get feedback from this site. I had a breeder, from whom I did not end up buying a puppy, contact me to complain about some comments that I had made on the site, which had been commented on by potential buyers. The comments were mostly positive and none were, I thought, derogatory. This breeder requested that I remove my comments but I believe in freedom of honest speech.

[F, Calla & Luca]

There is no question that we have many members who make invaluable contributions either because of personal experience, interest in a topic, professional background, creative ideas or just plain old common sense. Some members like Karen and you, Nancy, are always generously willing to write on certain topics in depth. as to whether the ads generate income directly or from rewards from Ning still results in support for the site one way or the other. I have noticed they change depending on the topic at hand sometimes incongruously so. I still wish I had Google stock from the beginning. I'd like to think i have a high index of suspicion where scammers are involved but there's always a first time. Luckily Bernie Madoff wasn't looking for the likes of me : ) The breeder I mentioned in the opening statement here is the one breeder I did visit. At the time i wasn't a member of DK and I would have been sceptical about some aspects of the program, which I overlooked at the time. The dogs looked good, had good pedigrees, I met the mom etc. I think we all need to be as informed as possible, and use good judgment. however there is always the unknown and the element of luck. So far I feel very fortunate with my doodles.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I also think that a recommendation coming from one person is not always equal to one coming from someone else; I may see a recommendation from you and think "F. is an intelligent, educated woman who I know to be very thorough in doing her research before she buys, so if she says ________ is a great breeder, that's a good recommendation." But as we have seen, there are lots of people who never had a dog before, or never bought from a breeder, and found their dogs on internet sites. Some of these people are the first to respond to a request for breeder recommandations with high praise for their "breeder", based on little but the cuteness of their dog, the reasonable price, or how nice the "breeder" sounded on the phone. Sometimes when you look at the "recommended breeder", you see it looks like a huge BYB or even a mill. But people are very defensive of their choices. Since a new person coming here to ask for a recommendation doesn't know that you researched carefully but first-time internet shopper didn't, both opinions are equal. I guess my point is that a person who doesn't know what they should be looking for in a breeder also doesn't know what they should be looking for in a ...recommender? Referrer? Recommendation giver? What's the word here?
I think the best tool anyone could have for finding a breeder is the info Adina wrote to advise people of what to look for in a breeder, and the importance of testing, etc. Then you could do your own search for breeders based on that info, or you could look at photos here, and when you see one you love, ask the owner where the dog came from and go from there. I think owner recommendations are the least valuable tool we have.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Thanks for your kind words. I absolutely agree that some people's recommendations are worth more than others. I would hope the reader of a recommendation would be able to discern from the recommendation, at least to some degree, the reliability of the reporter (is that a good word). I often find myself wondering if some recommendations, not on DK, that I see on line aren't written by the seller. I also know that many good medications for instance are blamed for everything short of alien invasions on some sites. Unlike Nancy, I shop, bank and do lots of things on line. I hate department stores and shopping in general. I try to be careful and thus far I've had no problem. As of 1992 I was saying that I saw no need for a computer. Now I spend too much time on line but I am constantly amazed that you can find an answer to almost any question online, at any time day or night. Yet even so, you have to be careful of the neutrality and reliability of the source. I think that goes for everything in life.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I have become so much more savvy since joining dk. I knew I didn't know a lot but as a mature adult, I thought I knew something and in reality I knew very little. I knew pet stores stocked from backyard breeders, but thought breeders also sold thru pet stores (unsuitable to represent their kennel pups). I was truly ignorant of the extent of the corruption in puppy mills and from website ads. I am naturally distrusting of internet things - rarely order, won't do banking etc., but I had no idea how widespread puppy mills were and how misleading their ads were. I know some of the areas in my state that were notorious for puppy mills but certainly not all. Personally, I suspect that many of the people who have doodles with major behavior/health problems often have dogs from poor breeding rather than from their lack of skill in owning a dog. (I am referring to major here).
As to the ads, I once spoke with Adina about it because I didn't understand them and she explained, like Karen, that the ads support the site and aren't under her control or option.

[Julie B.]

I think having purchased all of my dogs from "a breeder" I would be inclined to really search out the "hobby breeder" next time. I just think having one litter at a time gives the breeder more opportunity to interact and socialize the pups and to keep their environment cleaner. The problem is the hobby breeders don't usually have websites and they advertise in the classifieds mainly. I tried to find them with the addition of my new F1 doodle but it was a crapshoot trying to find one close enough to drive to and having a litter in the time frame that I wanted to get my pup. I ended up with another large breeder and other than the giardia and coccidia that I am dealing with my puppy is wonderful.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

I am coming into this discussion rather late but wanted to reply as I moderate the group in question.

I do feel that it is very important to have recommendations from clients who have visited because in this day of online consumerism where many buy from websites and never have the opportunity to travel and visit all of the breeders across the country. It is important to hear from someone who has visited the breeder and can vouch for the quality of the environment. Not every state has quality breeders and not every family has the opportunity to travel.

I personally will only allow people who have been in my home to be a reference for us, they have seen where my puppies sleep and play, they have seen my set up and the parents.

I have had countless clients who have traveled from state to state to visit breeders and tell me the horrifying stories of breeders who look good on the internet who had dogs with great pedigrees and health testing too but the dogs where not well cared for, matted and dirty, spending most of their time outside in the eliminates right along with the puppies. They reported of and even took pictures of rooms with cages stacked with puppies inside.

I can look at their website and see that the dogs are matted and puppies are kept outside because I know what a well groomed dog looks like and what puppies that have been raised indoors and well kept look like.

All of the breeders that were reported to me by visiting clients had health tested, had dogs with pedigrees and were members of associations minus 1 who was instead USD inspected and licensed.

I am sure that one of your breeder's clients has visited and can post their recommendation on their behalf.

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

I personally do not think you should have to actually have "visited" them to be able to discuss them. There were several breeders I had contacted that I thought were very nice, helpful, answered all of my questions, etc. that for certain reasons I did not end up purchasing from. There were other breeders that were not very helpful, didn't answer questions completely, and asked for deposits right off the bat. I feel that we should be able to discuss that, maybe someone has had a positive experience and vise versa. I feel that as a group we need to discuss all the aspects of breeders so we can all form our most educated opinions, etc.