When should a dog just be a dog?

[Sandy]

I've been thinking, and when I was a kid, I do not remember anyone that took their dog to dog training school, or even that there were dog training schools. I just wonder when we felt the need to do all this training, and if it has taken away the "dogness" of dogs. I had several dogs growing up, and we just got them, taught them the basics, and integrated them into the family. Now it seems that unless they can do a 30 minute down-stay, exhibit no excitement at meeting people or other dogs, and have a couple of dog school diplomas under their belts, they are not good dogs. Or rather, that we are not good people, because we didn't put the time in to do the training. I do know for sure that my parents never spent time daily training a dog, and I don't remember having a dog that was a problem.


So I guess my doodle debate question is - is all this extensive training necessary, or have we gone too far the other way?

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I also grew up with a dog...a huge Boxer named Duchess. My parents knew nothing about training her, and it became obvious as she got older. She was great with our family...sweet and loving. But, she had such bad manners that we really couldn't take her anywhere. My brother and I could not walk her, because she would try to take off whenever she saw another dog, and she was too strong for us to control. She could never go to games or the park with us. Whenever we had company, she had to be in the basement, because she could not be trusted. She was aggressive with any workmen who came to the house. I never wanted my dogs to have to live this way, which is why I've always pursued training. Our puppy comes with us everywhere, and in order for this to continue, he has to be able to behave, even where there are lots of distractions. I just don't believe that can happen without consistent training. Maybe it just depends on your plans for your dog.

[Sandy]

And I think some of it is peer pressure too. Hearing things like "You mean you haven't been to obedience school?" and then subsequently feeling like a poor dog owner because you haven't.

[Adina P]

I think the push toward taking obedience is to prevent dogs from losing their homes due to unwanted behavior--so owners learn how to manage and train for control and family life compatibility.

[Adina P]

Dogs do like having a job :) I think. So many were bred with a specific job in mind that it is often a disservice to not work a dog in his specialty area or give him SOMETHING to do when it's 'in his blood' so to speak. I dog happily doing a job is a beautiful thing!

But I also think the pendelum may have swung too far in the 'classes as hobby' arena...where people take dozens of classes but don't actually strong results. Classes for indoor manners, outdoor manners, walking politely, greeting politely, beginners, intermediate, level 3, level 4, advanced I, advanced II, CGC...where a really top notch serious obedience class and lots of work could cover all of that in much less time and money and with better results.

[Adina P]

A dog only needs to be as trained as the owner WANTS and as trained as it needs to be to keep it from causing harm to others or from being a nuisance to society/neighborhood. If someone doesn't mind living with a 'Marley' and can keep their 'Marley' from pulling them down the street on their butts, knocking down grandma or terrorizing the neighborhood...then fine. No need for further training.

I do NOT think that pet dogs are better trained NOW than 40-50 yrs ago...we just talk about it more and classes are more widely available. I don't agree that dogs are overachievers more now than in the past. Very few of pet dog owners have dogs that are very well trained and obey wherever they are taken. At least I have met VERY few who don't have to be coaxed, bribed or nagged into obeying (mine are not yet much of an impressive exception).

I could never live happily with a dog like 'Marley' -- I like being able to take Rosco anywhere dogs are allowed and know I can trust him not to be a royal terror. So that's a large part of why I worked hard with him. It also established great trust, bonding, and mutual respect between us. A trained dog is a dog that can enjoy greater liberty. To me the ultimate free and happy dog is one that can be trusted off leash!

Being allowed to 'just be a dog' is often incompatible with family life: digging, barking, marking, humping, jumping, destroying human things, wandering, and more 'problems'. Breed tendencies can be bad: border collies herding at kids' and cars and bikes, terriers chasing critters, dogs killing chickens -- dogs would get sent to the pound or put down many years ago for these things more readily.

50 yrs ago dogs weren't nearly as incorporated into family life. MORE lived outdoors, were allowed to wander freely, etc. Now dogs are far more pampered and looked upon somewhat differently but on the whole aren't as well suited to their new roles without training.

But training is not new...I think it's just more 'popular' to take lots of classes.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Well, I don't know what year we're talking about, but I took my dog to training classes in 1978. I couldn't tolerate the jumping, nipping, going into the garbage, pulling on the leash, etc., and my husband's methods of yelling, swatting, and shutting the dog up in the bathroom were clearly not getting results and seemd cruel to me. I didn't have kids yet, so I was able to spend time practicing, and I ended up with a beautifully behaved dog for 12 years.

[Adina P]

And training classes have been available for 20 years before that too. We just were missing the internet for the marketing of them, talking about them, etc.

[April Cliber]

Umm Karen, you just totally aged yourself. :o) I always thought you were in your 40's. But if you were married in 1978...... :o)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

LOL- I stopped lying about my age in my late-forties. Hard to get away with it when you're on a football field in bright sunlight, rooting for your grandson, the starting quarterback! :-)

[1xar0x2rcx0li]

My answer to "when should a dog just be a dog" is different than the discusion so far. Its not trained vs untrained at all, it is more of when can you let your well trained perfect dog let loose and just be a dog for a while. We are very busy family during the week, and the doodles get walks and fetch but for the most part have to adhere to leave it, drop it, sit, stay, down, etc...all of the trianing stuff. But on the weekend, its time for letting dogs be dogs and we go to the conservation area and they are off leash running through the wilderness, smelling smells, drinking streams, chasing critters, for a few hours. I think all dogs need some time to be just dogs, but they also need to fit into civilized home life, and be well behaved and trainied around people and inside.

[Adina P]

I agree with that. Yet without some level of training letting a dog 'be a dog' can be dangerous and unsafe (well unless you have those safe off leash areas where they can't bolt into traffic or bother other critters or people). With training they get far more of that. Our border collie, Cass, was trained to be off leash reliable. Thus she's ALWAYS had more freedom than either of our doodles enjoy presently. She was for YEARS walked off leash, allowed to sniff and walk ahead, enjoy the park at liberty...because she could be recalled or told to stop and she would. That is true freedom to me for a dog. She's now going deaf and so for her safety those off leash times are fewer and farther between...but having her as an example really showed me how cool it is to get to that point of training. I may not get there with Rosco...we'll see.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I love the idea of freedom for dogs. The romp at the beach a few weeks ago was as close as we've come.The area was very large and therefore "safe', especially since neither dog particularly liked the waves and steered clear of the water. I thought that anyone who brought a dog to such an event would have a "dog-friendly dog and with the exception of one shy dog, who rapidly relaxed, it was true. Being able to dig, bury and catch balls to the dogs heart's content was so wonderful to share with them. The dogs went off a little ways but always returned to the safety of the family group. Although my dogs certainly don't always listen I truly trust them not to hurt people. They love people and dogs.I just recently stopped classes in part because some things regarding dog behavior are important to me. Others not so much. I don't really worry about how they sit as long as they sit. I think each owner has to decide what's important and it's very individual. There really are no off leash hiking areas near us and my real hiking days are over. I think the dogs probably were even supposed to be on leash at the beach. But one of my favorite quotes is"It's better to beg forgiveness than ask permission". Within limits, of course.