Detailed (and lengthy!) general grooming questions

[Eric & Rufus]

The other day I posted a thread and pictures concerning my first attempt at grooming Rufus, and my dissatisfaction with the job I did on his face - especially his ears. I got a lot of helpful and encouraging responses (Thank you!), but I'm still not sure on the correct or easiest method of shaping his face. Plus, I've come up with some additional questions that I either couldn't find the answer to by searching the forum or that I still need more clarification on. So, I am going to ask some specific and probably very basic questions - I hope I don't sound like too much of an idiot!

Also, and I should have warned and apologized earlier, but I am a long-winded writer with lots of questions. Feel free to ignore me when you get tired of it! On the other hand, I'm equally as long-winded and thorough when answering someone else's questions or explaining something (which I happen to think is a good thing). :)

(1) Stephanie suggested using clippers and the same comb attachment that I used on Rufus' body to do his ears. I really like the sound of that because it sounds simple. Unfortunately, I got into the trouble I did with his ears because I had seen a video where the inside of the ear flap was clippered. I started grooming his ears by doing that, and that is when I ended up losing all the length. Maybe when I was clippering the inside of the ear flap I wasn't supposed to go all the way to the edge? If that is right, what about when clippering the outside of the ear flap?

If I can do the outside of his ears with the clipper and comb attachment, that'll be great. If not, it was also suggested I "layer" the hair, but I'm not sure how that is accomplished?

(2) After making his ears shorter than planned, I did try and shorten up his mustache and beard more than originally planned also (in order to try and balance it out). I initially used the curved shears to cut his mustache to length, but of course that left an awful scissor mark so I then used the thinning shears on just the ends of the mustache to make it look more natural. Is this the correct method, or should I just use the thinning shears for the whole job?

(3) Speaking of thinning shears, what is the correct way to use them? I only used them perpendicular to the hairs and only near the ends of the hairs. If I want to thin the bulk of his mustache and the area that I call his "cheeks" (in front of the ears and behind the muzzle, kind of alongside and under the eyes), should I use the thinning shears perpendicular to the hair growth but up higher from the ends? I've read a few posts by Nancie & Gracie Doodle that state to use the thinning shears parallel to the hairs. If I want to thin Rufus' mustache and cheeks, does that mean just hold the thinning shears with the points toward the ground and start cutting at the thickness of those areas? I'm afraid to cut anywhere away from the ends!

(4) In regards to Rufus' beard, I wasn't really sure where to stop clippering while doing his throat, so I clippered all the way up his throat and under a large portion of his chin. His beard is now almost like a "U" shaped thick line that follows his bottom jawline. I guess this isn't really a question, just looking for comments.

(5) I've seen several suggestions on the web to shave a "channel" from ear to ear underneath the neck. Do a lot of you follow that? What blade/comb length are we talking about doing that clippering with? Along the same lines, I've seen suggestions that in order to cut down on matting I can clipper right behind the ears, the front arm pits, and the front of the back legs where they meet the body. I didn't do that, but I'm interested in anything that cuts down on matting! Anyone here do that, and if so, what length is that clippering done at?

(6) Concerning clipper blades and combs, what are anyone's thoughts on a blade versus a comb of the same length. I'm thinking about getting the 3/4HT blade, which cuts to 3/4". My reason is that I understand a blade gives a smoother cut than a comb and will go through the hair easier. Is this correct? On the flip side, I would think the 3/4" comb attachment would be a lot cooler. What should my preference be?

As a side note, anyone find anything longer than the 3/4HT blade? I know they use to make them...

Thanks again, in advance!

[Barb @ Gemstone Labradoodles]

It's a beautiful drive up thru northern Ca and Oregon and Washington. British Columbia wine country is breath taking. I think you should visit me and bring puppy and I willl show you all this.

or

I hope to get a chance later to answer in detail. In the meantime I have 10 hungry puppies and a pack of hungry adults looking at me. BTW, I have some available chocolate puppies. Maybe you could drive up here and collect one on your grooming trip. :)

[Eric & Rufus]

LOL, I might have taken you up on your offer if I hadn't just burned up all my vacation time with family visiting!

And trying to tempt me with a choco puppy is just plain unfair...

[Nancie & Gracie Doodle]

Hi Eric...first, anything that I post is what works for my grooming needs and the type of hair Gracie Doodle has.  I always hope that what I post is beneficial to everyone but may not always be the case.  I haven't a clue how to groom curly, wooly or thick coats.  Gracie is fine, soft, wavy and not dense at all. All of her curls are under her ears and neck.  I am like you.  Over the years I have posted so many questions and always received help and I also have watched videos and read books.  I pretty much had to figure it out and poor Gracie suffered through some really bad haircuts.  Even after doing it for 3 years, her last one was a real hack job!!!

1.  I never use clippers on the outside of Gracie's ears.  I use the clippers with a short length comb 1/2" or 1/4" for under the ears up to the opening.  You want their ears to be able to breath and when the ears are down you don't even notice how short they are.  I also pull the ear hairs out of Gracie's ears.  Some Doodles have it and some don't and also in different degrees.  Gracie's is just at the entrance.  When I shorten her ears I do use the curved or straight scissor and always make sure you know exactly where the leather is.  I think the rule of thumb is to make the ear length in line with the chin or mouth line.  I also don't leave a beard on Gracie.  Therefore, the length could be different if you are leaving a long beard.  It becomes a balancing act.  After I have shortened her ears then I use the thinning shears or blending shears  and may go across the ear line just once to thin out the thickness.  After that I will blend just the cut area with the blending shears facing down toward the ground.  Remember to not snip repeatedly but do only one snip, comb, one snip, comb.  This is to break up the scissor line.  Then to thin out the overall ear I will do my best to take the hair and pull it away from the ear and then use the thinning shears to break up the all one length of the ears.  Again cutting down toward the ground.  This helps feather out the ears and make them fluffier but do it in baby steps and at random areas in the ear.  This is what I call layering. 

2 & 3.  You pretty much did the mustache the same way I would.  Again, I don't have a hanging mustache on Gracie.  I will trim her with straight scissors just along the lip line not letting any of the black lip show.  Gotta be careful of not hooking the scissor on the mouth or lip!!  Then I take her mustache (on the snout) and pull it out and up using a comb to the center of the snout.  Think of it as trying to make a pony tail on top of her snout.  You will be doing both sides and pulling them together at the top of the snout.  Don't worry about getting all the bottom little hairs.  Once I have the hair up I hold in between my first and second finger while pulling up and cut from the nose to the bridge of the nose with my straight scissors.  When you lay the hair back down it will automatically layer.  Then I might go into each side with my blending shears and again pointing down toward the floor do some cleaning up.  I also use my thinning shears behind the snout on her cheeks.  She gets a lot of bulk there and it makes her look hang dog like.  Sometimes I will use my very sharp straight scissors and pointing down open them and drag them down the hair which gives a nice smooth thinning.  Actually I probably do that more than the thinning shears on the cheeks.  Gracie also has tons of cow licks so no matter what I do her hair has a mind of it's own!

4.  When I am using the clippers and the 1/4" comb attachment I use it under her chin and down her neck.  I keep Gracie's neck close shaven because that and the ear areas is where mats will most likely appear. Also, she always has her head in a bucket of water and it is easier to deal with.   Again, I like a clean short chin to keep the wet dripping down when she drinks.  Plus being a girl she looks much more like one!  I have a book that I mentioned in one of the discussions that has been a life saver for me.  It emphasizes the directions you should go when using clippers.  For the neck start at the chin and clip downward and sweep off to one side or the other.  Don't just go straight down.  Do it sort of like an upside down Y with the tail of the Y being at the chin.

5.  I know nothing about a "channel" from ear to ear underneath the neck.  That might be a visual for people who want to keep their Doodle's coats longer and still need to let the ears breath.  I happen to keep Gracie short so everything gets shaved in that area to 1/2" or 1/4".

6.  I have always used a comb attachment on a blade.  Usually a #10 or #15 blade with a 1/2", 3/4" or 1" comb depending on the look I want overall.  I do have the 3 3/4 FC blade and have used it twice.  You can't put an attachment on it. What I find with using this blade is that you get a choppier looking hair cut.  Also, it does NOT leave the hair 3/4".  My Gracie was probably 1/4" long when I finished.  This last time I used it and that was the hack job I mentioned.  She looked like a homeless dog straight up from Tiajuana, Mexico!!!  Joke since San Diego is 20 miles from the border.  

Added note, when using a blade only be very careful of folds in the skin or any moles or bumps.  You can really do some damage.  Where the folds are on the neck I always stretch the skin out...even when using an attachment.  And the arm pit areas you need to watch as well.

So Eric, I think you have met your match...I too can be a long-winded writer but I also believe in really trying to give someone a good picture of how to do something.  Hope this helps.  When Barb finally gets back to you I want to read what she has to say.  She is the one who got me to the point I am.  Of course I modified a few steps because of Gracie's coat and my likes and dislikes on looks.  She will give you wonderful tips.  Boy, if I lived within a day or so drive from her I would certainly take her up on her offer.  It would be quite an experience to see first hand how grooming is done and also I would love to meet her in person and all her lovely Doodles!!!  You should take her up on her kind offer!

I just found the book..."Grooming Your Doodle" by Elizabeth Mechan  by Blurb Creative Publishing Service.  (blurb.com)

I think you can just Google it.  Don't be shell shocked when you see it selling for over $100.  There is a small a 7" x 7" paper back version that you can buy which is what I have and I keep it in my grooming bag.  Good luck and keep us all posted and share what you learn as well.

[Eric & Rufus]

THANK YOU for such a detailed response, it was exactly what I was looking for and you helped me visualize some of the things a bit better.

In regards to the "channel" under the ears and neck, it was something I've seen in a few places (Royal Diamond's videos was one of them), but I think you are right about it meaning more to those who keep their doodles in longer cuts. That makes more sense than me using a #10 blade for that when I already have him down fairly shortish.

As far as the blades versus combs question, I was referring to the 3/4HT, which is different than the 3 3/4FC. The 3/4HT is listed as being a finishing cut blade with a 3/4" (19mm) length. The 3 3/4FC is listed as a finishing cut blade with a 1/2" (13mm) length. I don't know who came up with the numbering system for these clipper blades!

I'm just wondering if the advantage of a smoother cut with a blade (if that assumption is correct) is offset by the fact the blade would be hotter, so I might be better served by using the attachment comb of the same length.

I've also already bookmarked that book, after reading one of your earlier posts. I've also bookmarked a DVD by Jodi Murphy called "Grooming the Goldendoodle". I couldn't find any references to her DVD on DK, so I'll have to look elsewhere for reviews before I decide which one I want to get. I also saw I could read a 20-page sample of the book you bought, but I haven't got around to that yet.

Thanks again for all of the good information and taking the time to respond in such detail.

[Nancie & Gracie Doodle]

I get really confused on the FC and HT or Skip Tooth Blades.  I just know that I have heard many times that the skip tooth can be very dangerous and to not use one.  I would be curious to know more about the 3/4 HT if it gives a 3/4" cut.  One thing I found regarding the blades heating was the clippers.  My first pair were the Oster A5 and they would get really hot.  Also, they were bulky and not small hand friendly.  My hands would get very fatigued and it was hard to get in tight places.  I then ordered the Andis UltraEdge AGC 2-speed and have been so much happier with them.  They are easier to hold, not as heavy, smaller, quieter and they don't seem to get hot. I have never had to stop or cool down the clippers as I did with the Oster.  I groom Gracie in the garage and so we take breaks every 15 minutes or so.  My back starts hurting and she likes to run off some pent up energy.  It usually takes me about 2+ hours to groom her. Not counting bathing and combing.  Also, some times I do her head and face on a different day.  All depends on the situation and time.  Some days she is not as cooperative as others!

[Eric & Rufus]

Well hopefully someone more knowledgeable will step in and correct me here if I'm wrong (preferably before I buy anything, lol), but...

My understanding is that the HT blades are finish cut blades and NOT skip tooth blades. The only HT blades I've seen are the 5/8HT and 3/4HT, which cut to 5/8" and 3/4" respectively. That makes me think the HT stands for "height". There is a post on DK about someone using a 7/8HT blade, but the post says that blade is discontinued and my research seems to vet that out. The 3/4HT is currently the longest cutting blade you can get.

The clippers you have are the same ones I bought. I thought the clippers were very quiet and cut very well, but again, I don't have any other experience for reference. I really like the clippers, but I am thinking about returning them to Petsmart. I can get the same ones cheaper at GroomersMall or PetEdge, and both places are currently throwing in the 3/4HT blade for free - which is why I have been asking about that particular blade versus using a 3/4" comb attachment.

[Nancie & Gracie Doodle]

I buy everything at Pet Edge or Groomers.  I will have to go check out that blade.  I know we all were at one time looking for a similar blade that was going to be announced soon but we never got any feed back.  This just might be the blade!  I just wish I knew what the HT stood for for sure.  Hey, you can't go wrong.  Get the clippers from them and the blade for free.  I think the clippers always come with a #10 blade but I could be wrong.  I have quite a few different types of blades but always default back to my #10 or #15.  You do know that the lower the number the longer the cut?  Therefore a #40 would be skinning them raw!!  That is what lots of people use for the sanitary but I would never do that.  You saw from my earlier post how I feel about sanitary cuts down to the bare skin... ouch!  I also find that the regular employees at PetSmart or PetCo don't know a think about grooming.  The only way you are going to get real answers is to talk to a groomer but some are hesitant to talk to you because they don't want to lose the business.  I'm sure Barb will let us know when she has a chance to respond.

[Eric & Rufus]

Well, I couldn't let it go without knowing for sure. I didn't call Andis myself, but I did just find this post on groomers.net where someone else called to find out what HT stand for: http://www.groomers.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=126&post=37...

The clippers from Groomersmall still come with the #10 blade, in fact it is the exact same packaging as the one I got at Petsmart, with the blue UltraEdge AGC2 Supers. But GM has it for about $35 cheaper and they are throwing in the 3/4HT blade, an Andis comb, and free shipping. Can't pass that one up!

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Eric, I'm really impressed.  Very nice job.

[Lynda Kamrath]

Did you see some photos, Joanne?

 

[Eric & Rufus]

Thanks Joanne, I'm trying!

[Lynda Kamrath]

My responses:

#1  I also use a clippers on the inside of the ear flap, but scissors cut the outer area of the ear.  You can layer easily with the scissors.  I wouldn't try layering with the clippers.

#2  I wouldn't use the clippers on his mouth either.  Again scissors cut around the mouth area and you can leave the beard as long as you like.  Remember, however, that it does make a mess when he is drinking.

#3  I never use thinning shears, although I sometimes do use mat cutters.  Be real careful with them as you or the dog can easily get cut.

#4  Leave the beard as long as you like it to be.  I would also layer cut here so you don't end up with a line.

#5  The neck and the collar area can get pretty matted up if you don't keep it cut short or combed frequently.  It is a problem area.  I sometimes clipper the area from one ear, down to the neck, and up to the other ear.  It just makes things easier for me to keep them clean and neat.

#6  I don't usually use blades except for shaving around the face, the feet, and the belly.  The rest of the dog, I use a scissors to do a scissors cut.  Hold the pads apart and shave between them, #1 blade.  Then use a #2 blade on the face and belly area.  Works for me.