Opinions & Advice on Grooming Henry Needed

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Well, I never thought I'd be here in the Grooming Group asking advice. I had poodles and I knew what to do with them. They didn't shed at all, their hair continued to grow forever, just like ours, and they had to be trimmed regularly. Just how short you cut them depended on what kind of look you liked and how much time you were prepared to devote to brushing and combing to keep them matt free.
Then I got Jackdoodle, and grooming was a thing of the past. It is just like having a Golden Retriever. he needs a bath, a little brushing, and goodbye haircuts. His hair only grows so long and never matts or needs to be cut. It's silky, not thick, not woollly, definitely not curly.
My foster doodles have been either like my poodles or like Jack, and I never had any trouble knowing what kind of grooming they needed.
Now...meet Henry, a DRC doodle who was just adopted:

Yes, he's the cutest thing in the world, and yes, he is terribly overweight. He weighs 116 lbs and should weigh 85-89. So that's not all hair. But he does have woolly, curly, doodle-y fur that we were sure was non-shedding. It seems like it should be, when you feel it and when you brush it. But, it's all over his house. It's all over his mom's clothes, and it was all over my clothes when I brushed him a little. At first I thought it was just a lot of dead hair that was never removed by brushing, because he wasn't very well cared for in his former home. He was just bathed and never formally groomed; his nails were never cut, either. But he isn't very matted at all, and his ears are completely free of hair inside, naturally. So how could that be if he is in fact a nonshedder? So now I'm thinking he's like a curly woolly version of Jackdoodle...his hair only gets so long and then falls out, he sheds, and he doesn't need haircuts.
But is that possible? And short of waiting a few weeks or months to see, how do we know? He's going to the groomer next week, and his mom has asked for my help & advice. We like the length he's at now. But if he's going to grow longer and matt, he should be trimmed when he's groomed, or he'll be too long and unmanageable by his next grooming. Plus, as long as she's spending the $ to get a 116 lb doodle groomed, she wants to have it done right.
Advice, please. Is it possible that he's a non-shedding doodle who just needs a really good brushing, and will need regular trims? Or is it possible for a doodle to have a really thick, fleecy coat that sheds and only gets so long?

[Ginny Nightingale]

Hmmm--not sure--but I have a doodle that needs to be trimmed, mats pretty easily and leaves quite a bit of hair around. If I brush against her with black pants for example, , I have 20-30 hairs on my pants--not a terribly large amount, but definitely shedding. I don't know what you mean by "all over the clothes" but if it's really wall-to-wall hair, then Henry must shed! But he sure looks like he wouldn't!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Not wall-to wall hair, but definitely tumbleweeds floating around, just like JD. 

A non-shedding dog, at least a non-shedding poodle, doesn't leave hair on your clothes. None. I was wearing black fleece, and it looks like it had a lace overlay after 20 minutes handling Henry.

OK, so you're saying that you have a doodle that both matts and sheds???? In other words, the worst of all possible worlds? See, I just don't get this. The reason a poodle matts is that the hair doesn't fall out...i.e., doesn't shed. It just keeps growing and has to be brushed and separated and kept from growing into and around itself, which is what matting is. So why would a dog who sheds also matt?

I just don't know what to tell the groomer about Henry. She's giving us a price based on what has to be done.

[Adina P]

It's probably the TEXTURE and length of the hair that makes it cling and matt...that's my guess.  Even a golden retriever and collie can matt in areas of friction and where the hair is longer.  

 

My hair is more like a poodle than a labrador, but if I never brushed it or did something to remove tangles it would start to get some uncomfortable knots/tangles, right?

 

Rosco gets tangles but RARELY any sort of matt that I can't comb out with some work.  He's very patient and if I'm patient I can yank out some matts/tangles.  But I don't consider him a matting dog because he's never had any issues with it and it doesn't matt at the roots and I can almost always comb out the matts with some work...if/when I find one.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Right, the comparison to your hair is exactly what I mean...your hair would matt if not brushed and combed because it doesn't shed; it keeps growing. Also, it's a woolier texture; mine, too.

And Rosco sheds but doesn't matt. You do cut his hair, though. Why? is it a matter of keeping it manageable?

[Adina P]

Well my hair does grow but it doesn't grow THAT fast that.  In other words I don't blame the growth for the matting, I blame the texture and the lack of brushing. Normally I don't brush my hair, I just detangle in the shower with conditioner...you just don't brush curly hair unless you want a big poofy-freshly-groomed-doodle -- that or you've straightened it for a few days.  MY hair is not very woolly though.  But it's also not at its curliest in the winter so I don't even remember what it was like when it looked right.

 

Rosco sheds and on rare occasions will have some sections that are a pain to comb through ... not sure if that counts as official matting, but it's on the poofiest, curliest section of him (thighs).  And chin because of the constant wetness.  I trim his face hair now and then because it does grow over his eyes.  I do trim him all over a couple times a year because in the summer it just seems nicer that way and I get tired of how unkempt he can look...I dunno, mostly for the heck of it and while technically it shouldn't make him cooler, I can't help but still think he's cooler...LOL.  After all their fur keeps them warmer so why not cooler with less fur?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

That last question I can answer. It's the density that keeps them warm, not the length.

[Barb @ Gemstone Labradoodles]

20 to 30 hairs would not really be considered shedding. That is probably just dead hair you have loosened while brushing. When you brush human hair, it ends up on the floor and countertop too.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I agree; I lose more than 20 hairs when i wash or brush my own hair, and I don't shed.

[Barb @ Gemstone Labradoodles]

Here is a pic of my shedding F1 right after a haircut. I give her an occasional haircut as in every 2 years. Her coat grows to a "length" and then quits. If I give her a haircut, it soon grows to it's "length". I only cut it to freshen the split ends.

My advice is to get the haircut when he is being groomed. It won't change what his hair will do in the future.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Go to my page and look at Clancy.  Henry and Clancy could be brothers except Clancy is short.  Clancy is very heavy for his heighth (only19") but he isn't fat just solid, solid and heavy (63 pounds).  Clancy seems like he should be a non=shedder also but we have fur all over also. Parts of him shed and parts don't.  His face grows very quickly but the rest of him not so much.  He rarely mats and has pretty pink inside his ears.  We have been using the LesPouchs brush and comb for him just like Ned, but I also use a rake and I am thinking I would like to try a pin brush. Clancy when we got him. Then his first and second haircuts.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Henry is definitely fat; he has rolls, lol. Poor guy. But he is very similar to the way you describe Clancy. The pink ears, etc.

This is exactly what I'm wondering...can some parts shed and some be non-shedding? How would we ever describe these dogs to people in the listings? We assumed that Henry was non-shedding based on appearances. Look at the hair on his hind leg in the 2nd picture; it's almost corded. Yet I brushed that out fairly easily.

Would you say I should tell the groomer to just trim him a little all over?

 

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

My groomer bathes and trims all over and Clancy looks beautiful and feels so soft for the first week.  Then he loses that softness. The hair on Clancy's back is much coarser - and reddish.  That area never even gets a tangle and I think that is the major shedding area. I can run a comb through this part of him and never get even a snarl.  I could brush forever and still get brushfuls. The rest of him is softer and very thick but not at all poodle-like.  Clancy's legs look exactly like Henry's - at least to me and this area, like his face, grows quite a bit. I tried to find a picture of Clancy's legs but I couldn't find a really good example. I would list him as shedding but will need some grooming. Clancy fur:This is the best showing the different coat on the quickly growing back legs: