Labradoodle & Goldendoodle Forum
Another perspective
So, have you seen this article? If read with an open mind it is without a doubt thought provoking. Now the opinion of the article is not necessarily entirely mine so if it is referencing any 'not nice' verbage toward anyone please remember I am merely sharing someone's view with you. Here it is:
By Steve Dale
No, they didn't get a shelter dog. So what?
The First Family's First Puppy is as pure bred as they come, a Portuguese Water Dog named Bo, a gift from Senator Ted Kennedy's family, who have three Portuguese Water Dogs of their own.
By accepting 6-month old Bo, who had been returned to the breeder by another family, you'd think animal rights (AR) groups would be pleased with the President's choice Instead, PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) and the Humane Society of the United States were sharply critical of Obama because he didn't adopt a shelter dog, as if somehow dogs in shelters are suffering only because Obama chose a dog from a breeder.
To be absolutely clear – adopting a shelter animal is one way ordinary people can do something extraordinary, it's relatively inexpensive and you may potentially be saving a life. It's a great thing to adopt a shelter animal.
However, I'm sick and tired of the AR groups blaming responsible breeders for the ills of animal shelters, as if they are somehow to blame for too many animals being given up and too few being adopted.
When I began writing this column nearly 15 years ago, most people considered shelter dogs and cats damaged goods, and were reluctant to adopt. That false perception is no longer accepted as fact. Shelter adoptions are up, and in many places way up. In fact, today, some communities even have shortages of adoptable dogs, so they ‘import' them from other cities, counties or states where there's an abundance in packed shelters. Meanwhile, spay/neuters are up, and overpopulation is down in many parts of America. A complex web of caring volunteers rescue pure-bred dogs and pedigreed cats, yanking them from shelters (freeing space there for others), and bringing those rescued into home environments to be adopted.
When you subtract the dogs and cats considered unadoptable for behavior and/or health reasons, we're doing better than ever when it comes to adoptions. Still, YES YES YES – absolutely too many animals languish and die in shelters. I'm not disregarding that tragic fact.
Unfortunately, animal rights (AR) organizations have blasted Obama for not choosing a shelter dog. Obama's not alone. Joe Biden was attacked for purchasing a pure bred German Shepherd dog. In fact, according to these extreme AR groups, anyone who purchases a pure bred dog or pedigreed cat from a breeder is considered to be directly responsible animals dying in shelters. That leap of faith is simply wrong.
Pets purchased from conscientious breeders rarely land in shelters because, according to most contracts they must be spayed or neutered, and if anything goes wrong those pets are supposed to be returned to the breeder. That's exactly what happened to the Obama puppy that unfortunately turned out to be a poor fit for his first home. He was returned to the breeder, rather than dumped at the door of a shelter. If somehow, some way that puppy did land in a shelter, Portuguese Water Dog Rescue would have saved him.
In fact, the AR groups have it backwards – responsible breeders are a part of the solution, not a part of the problem. The problems begin with the idiots who breed animals for all the wrong reasons, they don't belong to a breed club or consider genetics in their haphazard breeding; they simply hope to make a buck.
Totally at fault are the pet stores (whose supplies are from puppy mills and commercial warehouses) selling to anyone who has cash (credible breeders are discerning and interview perspective buyers).
Most of all, according to data, here are reasons animals most often land in shelters: it's owners who can't deal with a behavior problem and can't find or don't bother to seek suitable help; relocate but without taking the pet; people who rent an apartment or buy a condo where pets aren't allowed but are soon discovered so the pet losses; or increasingly they simply can no longer afford to maintain the pet. Increasingly, lots of dogs are confiscated from gangs and other ‘bad guys.'
Dealing with all these issues is what we should all be working on – not worrying about the breeders who are acting responsibly.
If the AR groups literally had their way – based on their own statements – there would be no breeding whatsoever. Their mantra is to advocate all breeders go away and that each and every animal is “Bob Barkerized” (spayed or neutered). If that were to literally happen, Maine Coon cats would soon be as endangered as the Cheetah; and American Cocker Spaniels or, for that matter, Portuguese Water Dogs would be as threatened as the African Wild Dog.
Made to feel guilty, and pushed to do positive PR, the Obama's will make a contribution the Washington (D.C.) Humane Society. That's nice. But the Obama's have nothing to feel guilty about. If you purchase a dog from a pet store or a reckless breeder, now you should feel guilty. But that is not what the Obama's did. In fact, they didn't make any purchase since Bo was a gift from the Kennedy family. Rescuing an animal from a shelter is good, but so is choosing a loving and responsible breeder – these two choices are not mutually exclusive.
Here is the link also if you are interested in the source ~ http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/print-archive/tribune-media-servic...
By Steve Dale
No, they didn't get a shelter dog. So what?
The First Family's First Puppy is as pure bred as they come, a Portuguese Water Dog named Bo, a gift from Senator Ted Kennedy's family, who have three Portuguese Water Dogs of their own.
By accepting 6-month old Bo, who had been returned to the breeder by another family, you'd think animal rights (AR) groups would be pleased with the President's choice Instead, PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) and the Humane Society of the United States were sharply critical of Obama because he didn't adopt a shelter dog, as if somehow dogs in shelters are suffering only because Obama chose a dog from a breeder.
To be absolutely clear – adopting a shelter animal is one way ordinary people can do something extraordinary, it's relatively inexpensive and you may potentially be saving a life. It's a great thing to adopt a shelter animal.
However, I'm sick and tired of the AR groups blaming responsible breeders for the ills of animal shelters, as if they are somehow to blame for too many animals being given up and too few being adopted.
When I began writing this column nearly 15 years ago, most people considered shelter dogs and cats damaged goods, and were reluctant to adopt. That false perception is no longer accepted as fact. Shelter adoptions are up, and in many places way up. In fact, today, some communities even have shortages of adoptable dogs, so they ‘import' them from other cities, counties or states where there's an abundance in packed shelters. Meanwhile, spay/neuters are up, and overpopulation is down in many parts of America. A complex web of caring volunteers rescue pure-bred dogs and pedigreed cats, yanking them from shelters (freeing space there for others), and bringing those rescued into home environments to be adopted.
When you subtract the dogs and cats considered unadoptable for behavior and/or health reasons, we're doing better than ever when it comes to adoptions. Still, YES YES YES – absolutely too many animals languish and die in shelters. I'm not disregarding that tragic fact.
Unfortunately, animal rights (AR) organizations have blasted Obama for not choosing a shelter dog. Obama's not alone. Joe Biden was attacked for purchasing a pure bred German Shepherd dog. In fact, according to these extreme AR groups, anyone who purchases a pure bred dog or pedigreed cat from a breeder is considered to be directly responsible animals dying in shelters. That leap of faith is simply wrong.
Pets purchased from conscientious breeders rarely land in shelters because, according to most contracts they must be spayed or neutered, and if anything goes wrong those pets are supposed to be returned to the breeder. That's exactly what happened to the Obama puppy that unfortunately turned out to be a poor fit for his first home. He was returned to the breeder, rather than dumped at the door of a shelter. If somehow, some way that puppy did land in a shelter, Portuguese Water Dog Rescue would have saved him.
In fact, the AR groups have it backwards – responsible breeders are a part of the solution, not a part of the problem. The problems begin with the idiots who breed animals for all the wrong reasons, they don't belong to a breed club or consider genetics in their haphazard breeding; they simply hope to make a buck.
Totally at fault are the pet stores (whose supplies are from puppy mills and commercial warehouses) selling to anyone who has cash (credible breeders are discerning and interview perspective buyers).
Most of all, according to data, here are reasons animals most often land in shelters: it's owners who can't deal with a behavior problem and can't find or don't bother to seek suitable help; relocate but without taking the pet; people who rent an apartment or buy a condo where pets aren't allowed but are soon discovered so the pet losses; or increasingly they simply can no longer afford to maintain the pet. Increasingly, lots of dogs are confiscated from gangs and other ‘bad guys.'
Dealing with all these issues is what we should all be working on – not worrying about the breeders who are acting responsibly.
If the AR groups literally had their way – based on their own statements – there would be no breeding whatsoever. Their mantra is to advocate all breeders go away and that each and every animal is “Bob Barkerized” (spayed or neutered). If that were to literally happen, Maine Coon cats would soon be as endangered as the Cheetah; and American Cocker Spaniels or, for that matter, Portuguese Water Dogs would be as threatened as the African Wild Dog.
Made to feel guilty, and pushed to do positive PR, the Obama's will make a contribution the Washington (D.C.) Humane Society. That's nice. But the Obama's have nothing to feel guilty about. If you purchase a dog from a pet store or a reckless breeder, now you should feel guilty. But that is not what the Obama's did. In fact, they didn't make any purchase since Bo was a gift from the Kennedy family. Rescuing an animal from a shelter is good, but so is choosing a loving and responsible breeder – these two choices are not mutually exclusive.
Here is the link also if you are interested in the source ~ http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/print-archive/tribune-media-servic...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle on
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I agree with just about everything that is being said here. (Joe Biden's shepherd came from a commercial breeder, not a good responsible breeder, which is what sane people attacked him for, not the fact that it was a purebred.)
I think that people need to realize that the AR groups are not the same as rescue groups. If it was up to PETA, no one would have any kind of companion animal at all, not even a goldfish. Peta has publicly killed dogs and cats who were scheduled to be euthanized by pulling them from municipal shelters under the guise of transporting them to safety, and killed them on air as a way of getting the point of animal overpopulation before the public eye. These are not sane people. For more information on the above factual story, read "The Myth of Pet Over-Population" by Nathan Winograd. I think Clark has reviewed the book here on DK in the reviews section.
While there may be many good individuals involved in rescue who feel very strongly that everyone should adopt rather than buy, I don't think that's the case with most legitimate rescue people & organizations. I know we strongly try to dissuade people from adopting for the wrong reasons, i.e., to save money, and also try to direct people who have very specific requirements to responsible breeders.
Here is the best sentence in the article, IMO:
"Totally at fault are the pet stores (whose supplies are from puppy mills and commercial warehouses) selling to anyone who has cash (credible breeders are discerning and interview perspective buyers)."
Amen -
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Permalink Reply by Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles on
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Yes that is definitely a hilight sentence in the article.
IMO this single largest influence any of us can do to prevent this is inform and spread the word. If the buyers who formerly made this decisions emotionally were equipped with the tools to make informed decisions most of the battle would be over. Of course there will always be those who make emotional decisions but that is on them, it does not matter where it came from or what the price - the end result is someone made a decision without thinking it through. -
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Permalink Reply by Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles on
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Excluding The Obama's, who we can presume had expert advice, it's the regular Joe and family will make snap decisions and impulse buy, or want the current designer dog because Paris Hilton or some other bo-bo has one, are the people who buy from petstore's and not from reputable breeders. I have never had a problem with reputable breeders, it has always been the mass breeders and mills that have given all breeders the bad name. Good breeders test, track and honor their dogs, mass breeders do not. For me, the idea has always been to educate the uneducated. That's why The Original Rescued Doodles, Doodles In Need and The DRRC was started in the first place. Somehow, some of us became synonymous with breeder bashing and that cannot be further from the truth. We will always support good breeders and yes, bash or better word...expose bad one's. That, IMO, should be all of our focus.
"Totally at fault are the pet stores (whose supplies are from puppy mills and commercial warehouses) selling to anyone who has cash (credible breeders are discerning and interview perspective buyers)." Amen is right. -
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Yes I realize that you do what you do from your heart and wish to say you do a very good job at educating. And really IMO whatever has happened with whomever that was translated however between personalities does not matter. If we let it matter it is like driving a car with a flat tire, it is going to take longer, be more uncomfortable, possibly cause more damage and use more resources to move to the goal. Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion and even their words. I have been guilty of my words oozing out of my mouth or through the keyboard often to regret later that I did not just sit on it a few minutes to question my motive and what I hoped to accomplish through those words.
"We cannot walk alone.
And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead.
We cannot turn back."
Martin Luther King, Jr. "I Have a Dream" -
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WOW, deep. Thank you Dianne. You are right, if we walk together maybe we can make a difference in this world...or in this little corner of it. I would much rather hear the other side of the story then be left in the dark to assume. Open dialog...even if heated, but with respect is always better than isolation. Hasn't that been the cause(s) of every world conflict since the dawn of time. LOL Rather an "us vs. them" mentality, I much prefer the discourse and respect. I understand and respect YOUR "perspective" because you have shared it and helped all of us to understand the other side. I think sometimes in our zeal to save, we choose our enemies without narrowing onto the real evil. Rescue Folks (and all of us) maybe need to look at parts of the picture and not just the whole picture to see the truth. Maybe it is time to keep this dialog and others, open. Again, Thank you for always sharing "Another Perspective."
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New ~ another perspective ~ a breeders reply to an email seeking stud service:
Hi _____________!
Welcome to the world of labradoodles! What made you decide to embark upon
this journey, did you already have a labradoodle? Are you planning on
breeding North American Labradoodles or Australian Labradoodles? I would
be open to discussing this further with you but due to the binding ethics
of which I have agreed to follow in order to be in good standing with
several affiliations I would need to confirm a few questions from you
first. The first would be that you are buying breeding rights with the dam
you have coming right? There are a number of fine breeders I am familiar
with in Washington, who is she coming from? What did you have in mind for
your short term goals ~ what health testing will be performed, what age
will you start breeding her, will you be doing early spay and neuter on the
puppies before they go home? These are all questions I am sure you will
have for me as well. Perhaps you have had similar responses, some think it
is falsely motivated sometimes, do not get discouraged ~ these are the type
of breeders you will want to qualify for your association in the future as
they indeed have the best interest of the dogs at hand rather than the
opportunity for a fast profit. Have you bred other dogs in the past or is
this a new venture? I am looking forward to hearing from you ~ -
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New ~ Another perspective ~ a breeders intitial response to puppy inquiries ~ :
(Pre~P.S. though stated that our doodles start at $2500 I should tell you that I have never accepted that amount, that may change at some point in the future, then again maybe not. I use this as much for a screening tool as any others that I consult.)
Thanks for your words of wishes for feeling better. I think I need to just
accept this could be a slow process, sometimes we need to be reminded that
frequently what we 'want' does not meet our own calendar. Yes, Sally is a
dear - it did not take long into our first email exchanges to know this; I
enjoyed sharing her anticipation of her little ones arrival and of the
stories they have made together since. It sounds like she thinks an awful
lot of you as well, she has written some beautiful words of you and your
family. Her recommendation for your family as doodle owners goes a long
way with me.
I begin every contact I have with families who are considering doodles the
same ~ that is that I feel my role is far beyond 'selling' our dogs.
Graciously I have found myself here and it is far more important to me to
help families to make informed and well matched selections than sell a dog
~ I want more for our dogs AND their potential families. I consider it a
privilege to meet so many wonderful people and if I am unable to meet their
needs I never close the door, I am happy to make referrals and even aid in
the search whether it takes you in the direction of one of our dogs, a
breeder friend's dog or even a rescue/shelter dog.
Our current availability is for standard Australian Labradoodles. They are
5 1/2 month old, perhaps odd to some but we tend to welcome our pups
hanging out with us a bit longer and our families seem to really appreciate
that we
have already worked with them in some of the most challenging areas for new
puppy owners. This also helps for us to most accurately predict size. I am
a single mom to two children, I do work out of the home and naturally much
more in the home. What I lack in energy at the end of the day to market is
very well invested in our dogs and I rest well in knowing they each already
have a home yet to be revealed. Each puppy we have placed has been a
perfect fit, for this we never mind waiting = ) All of that can really be
summed up in ~ no there are no issues with our dogs, they have not been
passed by we just happen to be far more inclined to invest in them than
pedaling them. We very carefully match our doodle parents. We do extensive
health testing and welcome inquiries about it, we also will never hesitate
to provide you with the opportunity to view these documents. That is
another point that I always try to share with potential families, a vet
check offering clearance for breeding is not to be confused with thorough
health testing. Such testing helps to afford that your dog has a minimal
risk of falling victim to genetic issues that may be more prevalent to the
breed you select. We test hips, elbows, eyes - both CERF and PRA, vWd,
thyroid along with a CBC panel and are working on incorporating cardiac
testing. As a future pet owner it is your right to know about such testing
- frequently litters offered at bargain prices are not bargains at all with
the potential for great financial and emotional burdens for both beloved
dogs and their families. Where ever your search takes you please keep this
in mind. Additionally because we do feel so strongly about our genetic
health testing we offer a 3 year genetic health guarantee which does not
require the return of the dog for either a new puppy or financial
compensation equivalent to the purchase price for genetic health issues.
Of course your interest is in Joy and Micah's new litter. We anticipate
their
homecoming events to light up the calendar through out the month of August.
The litter was born on 5/3, we have 5 males (4 chocolate, 1 cream) and 4
girls
(3 chocolate, 1 cream). Though originally anticipated that Joy would be a
standard doodle, she falls within the medium range at 35 lbs pre-pregnancy.
Micah would be considered a small standard. I fully anticipate their pups
will be
medium in size with a possibility of a couple of small standards. I will
be able to
predict this with more accuracy as time goes by. If chocolate is your
interest we
sure have a well matched litter as they are in a variety of chocolate
flavors (okay,
hues ~ I just liked the way flavors sounded). It does also appear that
several will
have fleece coats.
There are many resources available to you as a potential doodle owner,
though one does still need to be cautious with information presented. While
labradoodles are indeed allergy friendly NO ONE can guarantee they will
never shed, be leery of those who say they are hypo allergenic or non shed.
When allergies are a potential issue for families that I work with I really
like to send a hair and saliva sample to check for a reaction. In one
instance no reaction was had to the sample, the first night a little boy
had some hives, the next day nothing and within a week, no significant
symptoms ~ prior to that he could not even dine at his grandmothers home
because of her dog. There are several places I would highly recommend for
you to check out ~ www.goldendoodles.com, Australian Labradoodle
Association of America - http://www.ilainc.com, www.doodlekisses.com and
www.doodleworld.com (the last of these are like a facebook for all things
doodle). While visiting doodlekisses please do stop by Trinity Doodles ~
Tails from Home to check out our puppy families and their doodles.
In terms of pricing, every situation is different. We start our Australian
Labradoodles at $2500, from there we have a number of qualifying discounts
and will work with potential families in any way we are able as we really
do want to make this an option for future doodle families. I am reworking
some of the verb age in regards to that on my site, but will try to offer
an overview. A deposit of $300 holds your doodle reservation, families who
do have a deposit in place will be selected by their doodle (funny how it
works
that way, I watch the love affair unfold with 'the one' sometimes from the
moment
a family walks in the door) in the order that their deposit came in.
Currently this
would place your family third on the list. Following the initial deposit
when our doodles are paid in full with a signed contract before I set
the spay/neuter appointment I offer 10% off, we do not schedule this
procedure until our doodles have a home and since it is permanent I feel
much better if I know for certain there will be no issues that involve
regret of that very permanent decision. I offer a further discount that is
usually in the neighborhood of 5% (yet not etched in stone) in appreciation
to those that invest of themselves for a greater cause ~ of course this
takes a variety of forms but some examples might be for teachers,
firefighters, volunteers of assorted capacity and many more.
Our pricing includes spay/neuter and micro-chipping
as well as many other factors but those two are usually of the largest
financial consideration for savings of the owner in regards to their future
responsibility. There is the possibility of additional options I am
looking
at that may potentially provide incentives that would result in further
reductions but I have not worked out all of the details yet.
I am always happy to help in any way that I can and am perfectly willing
to do so regardless of whether you are considering one of our puppies, a
breeder friends or a rescue pup. It is a large decision and not one to be
taken lightly or acted upon emotionally. For this reason we try and assist
in every possible way so that potential doodle families can make informed
decisions that will result in optimal benefit for all involved. Somewhere
out there exists the ideal doggy family member for everyone and aiding in
the discovery is of far more importance to me than 'selling' a puppy. I
look
forward to talking to you further, have a great day!
Sincerely,
Dianne
--
Dianne Carter
Trinity Doodles
http://www.trinitydoodles.com
doodles@trinitydoodles.com
321-277-3110 -
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Wow, Di. I personally do not know any other breeders except for you, so I am sure others can say otherwise. But just reading through your correspondence posted here, my first reaction is that you are a truly caring and sincere individual. You are well spoken and articulate. I can imagine anyone corresponding with you to be impressed with your knowledge and devotion. I can also see where it would "put off" someone who did not have true intentions with regards to breeding. I can imagine the person who thinks "I will breed my dog and make lots of money," will think twice before doing this because of all the time, energy and costs you outline in your letter. And that is a good thing. They should not be breeding indiscriminately, in my opinion, in this economy especially. Sadly, I fear, there will be someone else who is not as caring as you who will allow it.
Your altruistic tendency toward helping responsible families afford a doodle, discounts for "heroes" in society, and of course your donations to rescue groups makes you one of a kind in breeders. (As far as I have met, anyway). I am also impressed with your keeping and socializing you pups to such an age as they can be fully socialized and stable. Personally, I like the 4-5 month olds, better than the tiny babies, who many times need more time with their pack and birth family before being taken away to live solitary lives with their forever family. I'll bet this prevents many of the behavior and possibly medical issues that arise with the 8-12 week old pups, who IMO, are released too early.
Thank you so much for sharing this with us and all you have done to help us to understand "your perspective" of this issue. I wonder how many other breeders feel the same way. -
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Permalink Reply by Jeannine on
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Dianne,
If one day I want a doodle from a breeder you are the first one my list!.
I always question the price of a doodle in comparison of my purebred Golden Retriever. For your puppies, it is so clear why than all my questions are answered.
You include in your price:
The puppy, the tests, the care and love in each pups for a longer time than average breeder, the early training, and very important, the spay/neutered and the micro-chip of the doodle.
If I add only the two last items with the the initial price of my Golden, I pay way more than $2,500.
I just wish that more breeder of any kind of breed would be as professional and caring as you are.
Your gold is not just selling doodles but giving each of your pups a good forever family and for their family, the perfect puppy including all the knowledge they need to provide for a happy, well balance beautiful companion for a very long time.
Congratulations and BRAVO for your enormous work of teaching future doodles' parents and also the public in the same time.
We so need more people like you but diamond are rare and hard to find. I'm grateful we find you. -
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