OMD another food change...be prepared this is lengthy!!

[a.k.a. Rodney]

OKAY........, not looking for Kudos or critical comments...but i have to say i am proud of how i handled my last visit & discussion with my vet over DerbyDoodle's food & diarrhea.

While it started out on the lame side...once i got the food ...slightly intimidated to mention it...but this is all "virtual life" anyway..no one can come after me or ostracize me from the community..RIGHT?.....Purina HA Rx diet

For some people, especially newbie doodle people, it is kind of strange to challenge a Doc & especially one that is a friend...but this last visit..put me over the edge...after a third round of stool sample & a a REAL PCRT panel..$320 panel...at that.  he explained that DerbyDoodle  has some bacteria that overtook other bacteria...not sure if it was the bad overtaking the good or visa versa...anyway another 7 day round of MetroD..which he knows i hate giving her..but really he came down hard on doing it twice a day and said the dosage was so low..not to worry about neuro. side effects...

Also continue the ProviableDC & ...drum roll.....PURINA HA Rx diet....i really made faces & let him know i was not pleased...he gave me the old saw..his dogs were on iti  He also tells me he speaks to the Internal Medicine specialist on the phone.to discuss DerbyDoodle's treatment...and this is perfectly OK & safe to use .....and pointed out the Primal Raw dehydrated wasn't helping......yadah, yadah..

Well, i took it like a sucker and dragged it home...where i sat down and read the ingredients....

Research or not, bland or not, safe or not...i know enough now from Karen's diligent efforts to get DKers to avoid this crap....that i politely texted him and told him after i read all the ingredients  i a.m. NOT interested in feeding DerbyDoodle hydrogenated protein, cellulose & any more chemicals....which is all that the dog food had in the bag.  i asked him to check out the Raynes formula from Canada... (she had been on Primal Chix dehydrated & pumpkin up to this point  when the loose stools returned) He called the next morning, did not like the Raynes...not enough research to back up the claims, but

he looked at the Stella & Chewy's Rabbit dehydrated food...and was okay with that....So, my kosher little pooch is now on rabbit....but if it helps get her well...by all means....

He also asked me if the Comcast man had come to my house..quite puzzled i asked "why"/ his response was priceless....b/c he said..i asked him to come and turn off your internet...you are reading to much on it ....

Must admit he has a sense of humor...DerbyDoodle is doing better..apparently she will eat anything...He cautioned nothing must go into her digestive system but this food & the 2 meds...no treats..she gets none anyway, but i even had to buy Revolution b/c the Heartgard is edible and not acceptable now.

There probably are several of you out there shaking your heads & muttering some highly unprintable nouns, but i did fight back & if this doesn't do the trick...i am willing to leave him...however, are there better vets around here? Not really!! this is FloriDUH!!!

GOOD NEWS:  i am getting to be a stronger advocate for my DerbyDoodle...crossing my fingers..this all ends with a positive resolution soon....can't begin to tell you how much dog food i have donated to the Palm Beach county Rescue.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Gee, I guess I might know what I'm talking about here, huh? Maybe I'm not just spending hours here trying to provide information and help because I don't know what else to do with myself. :)

In fact, I might even be clairvoyant. Have you ever taken the time to read the featured discussion on Why You Should Say No When Your Vet recommends Rx Food? which I wrote back in 2009? 

Here is one excerpt from that discussion: 

Reply by Karen & Jackdoodle on December 24, 2009 at 3:17pm

"Now, I'm not telling any of you to get into a fight with your vet, or accuse him of trying to rip you off or make your dog sick; I'm just saying, ask questions. If your vet prescribes one of these foods, politely ask a reasonable question like
"What ingredients do you believe are causing Rover's problem?" "How will feeding this food help Rover?" or "Why is this food better for Rover than what I am currently feeding him?"
Nobody could get mad at you for that, could they?
And don't accept a vague non-answer like "This food is specially made for dogs with diarrhea". You know what's in it now. . Don't say, "I read on-line that..." The response to that will be that you shouldn't believe everything you read on-line"

I wonder how I knew he would say that.

I don't know any other way to say what I have said many times before, so here it is one more time.

1. Vets do not receive nutrition in vet school. They are not well educated in nutrition. You have to accept that. It's not weird. Your doctor is not educated in nutrition either.

2. Proviable is a probiotic. Probiotics are good bacteria which is necessary for proper digestion and stool formation. They are not drugs.

3. Metronidazole is an antibiotic. It destroys bacteria in the gut, all bacteria, including the good bacteria that is necessary for proper digestion and stool formation. When dogs are given repeated courses of metronidazole, they develop bacterial imbalances in the GI tract.

Your vet is telling you that Derby has a bacterial overgrowth in her intestinal tract, and you can rest assured that it is the bad bacteria that has "taken over the good"...how would it be a problem the other way around???? If there were no bad bacteria and only good, that would be wonderful, wouldn't it?

So to fix this problem, your vet has once again prescribed a drug which is going to kill all of the bacteria, good and bad. Am I the only one who sees a vicious cycle here?????

Regarding Rayne Nutrition, here is some info from the website:

We work with the following experts to assure the custom diets we make and deliver to your door meet your pets specific nutritional needs. Please contact one of these individuals if you need a diet designed for your pet:

North Carolina State University, College of Veterinary Medicine – Health and Wellness Center

 Nutrition Service:

Dr. Korinn Saker DVM, Ph.D., DACVN

Dr. Rebecca Remillard Ph.D., DVM, DACVN

PetDiets.com phone: [phone]

Dr. Rebecca Remillard Ph.D., DVM, DACVN

Red Bank Veterinary Hosptial – Clinical Nutrition Department 

Dr. Lisa Weeth, DVM, DACVN phone: [phone]

Hmmm....four veterinary nutrition specialists (those are veterinarians who have three years post graduate study in animal nutrition, two of whom are employed by the veterinary school of a major university versus your vet...whose opinion on diets should we believe? 

 

I wish you and Derby the best and really hope that you can get a handle on her issues. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

PS: Be sure that you are allowing at least two hours, and preferably more, between the metronidazole and the Proviable. 

[Lynda Kamrath]

I read your post this morning and have been thinking about it ever since.  It is such a question these days what to feed your dog and what might be harmful to them.  Sorryfully, it is all about the money here in America and it has influenced every segment of our lives.  Medical care carries over to the veterinary care and the expenses are amazing.  Then the whole issue of insurance.  That is the way it started with our own medical care.  Food?  Well, any place that was using protein fillers in their baby formulas cannot be trusted AT ALL with pet food. Can you imagine what they would give to animals?  Any ingredients at all from China and just stay away.  But, our own food is getting just as bad.  I had one doodle die at seven years of age with liver failure and another doodle now has cancer of the liver.  I was raised on a farm with all types of animals and our dogs always ate the same things we did.  We had plenty of fresh fruits and vegetables and home-raised meat.  The dogs ate table scraps and we seldom would buy a bag of dog food.  Now, they make you feel guilty feeding your dogs anything except nutritionally balanced tested dog food.  The vets are encouraged by the pet food industry to recommend foods, but it is all about the money, not the goodness of the food.  I don't trust anyone, and that is not my nature.  I cook for my dogs and feed them things like Happy Dog (a locally produced product that you cook up with meat), routisserie chicken, and meat from the grocery story (same thing my husband eats).  They are carnivores and they love meat.  I don't eat it, but I cook it for my dogs.  My vet said to feed Groucho Too anything he wants to eat, so I do.  I have even given my dogs probiotics on their food and they seem to like that.  So, my advice to you is to do what you think is right for your dog and feed him what you think is right for him.  And, let the vet know why you feel the way you do about the recommendations made regarding pet food.  My medical doctor did a turn around when he went on vacation to Hawaii and saw what was happening with GMO corn over there.  With GMO, fracking, drones, and disregard for the environment, it is hard to give your support to anyone these days.  And remember - It is all about the money (sadly).

[a.k.a. Rodney]

Lynda, first let me say how sorry I am that Harpo is ill...and secondly, thanks for your concern & reply
.....In my immediate family I have six physicians....all specialty types.... Very honorable serious doctors
I have never had to question the veracity or sincerity of any info given me from any doctor I've ever seen or known. This is completely a foreign and unique experience for me with these Vets. The one DerbyDoodle sees now was not the first one we went to...I was reluctant b/c of the friendship link we have.....but the original one was not as good an office as it once had been...so I sought my friend's son out. I don't deny that there probably is/could be a monetary component in his choices...however, I also believe he wants DerbyDoodle to get well and is concerned about her well being. I understand what your message is....I a.m. So sad DerbyDoodle did not do well on my home cooked chix & rice....while writing this and thinking out loud I'm wondering if maybe lean ground beef may be the answer...and to stay away from the chicken ...?? She has improved once again on this new food..dehydrated Stella & Chewy's Rabbit...I hope it is something that lasts...the doc had me switch to a topical heart worm med b/c he wanted to isolate what she ingested....next step is regrettably a specialist ....I hope I do not need to take that big step

[a.k.a. Rodney]

KAREN, I have just finished reading your 2009 posting about Rx foods & how to talk to the vet....I Don't doubt your knowledge or your conscientious interest in the dogs and the nutrition that they get.....my only confusion is my pup came home on Acana...I never gave her anything else..till the diarrhea began..then it was my own boiled bland chicken & rice....this did not help her sustain normal stools....I added sweet pot....no dice with that...Then switched to pumpkin....while on the Primal dehydrated chicken her stools began to get mushy again....she had a few days of Metrod until you said...that was not a good choice.... Until this most recent bout she's been off the MetroD......I never separated the 2 drugs...I will now...however.....this obviously isn't as simple as changing foods or regulating when I give her the meds..... I guess you would suggest the next step is an internal medicine guy....I believe that's where I am Headed
Thanks for your reply & the restraint you used in almost NOT calling me an idiot :)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The thing is, you have posted at least half a dozen discussions here and more in the main forum about Derby's GI issues, and some of us have taken a lot of time trying to help and give advice about food, meds, etc. which you then seem to ignore or tell us that the store clerk says something different, a friend says something else, etc. Here is one discussion in which I was told about the store clerk's advice and how knowledgable she is after we had spent a lot of time trying to figure out what was going on with Derby and giving advice about a bland diet, and this is only one of many: http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/same-saga-just-more-intens...

I've also explained about the probiotics and how they work many times, including in one PM to you. Yet that seems to have been ignored as well. (In your post immediately above this one, you again refer to the "two drugs". Derby is only taking one drug. Again, Proviable is not a drug.)  So forgive me if I feel frustrated, or like I am wasting time and energy here. I really don't mind if someone prefers to take advice from their vet, their friend, their groomer, or whoever, but then why ask me at all? .

I also believe that you did say that the bland homemade diet was helping, but for some reason you were impatient to get back to commercial foods, and to stop the probiotics.

The metronidazole kills all bacteria. The purpose of the probiotics is to replace the good, necessary bacteria. If you give the probiotics at the same time as the metro, the metro kills the probiotics and they don't do any good.

I believe this is the reason that Derby has an overgrowth of bacteria in her intestines. I don't think it was the Acana food or any food that caused the initial problem.  Originally, you said she had stress from a trip and also might have eaten something on the street. But the vet right away prescribed metro, it stripped away all of the bacteria she needed to form normal stools, the probiotics were not given separately from the metro so the good bacteria was not replaced, and once the metro was discontinued, the bad bacteria flourished in her gut. The probiotics were also discontinued. Food was changed several times, new foods were introduced, and that further irritated the gut. She cannot form normal stools within normal gut flora.

At this point, I would not ask any more advice from anyone other than the vet. Follow his advice to the letter, and hopefully this will do the trick. Do not change anything, do not add anything, and continue the probiotics even after you stop the metro. 

What concerns me is that you are feeding a new food, and you are also giving metro again. If you are seeing an improvement, how do you know if that's due to the new food, or to the medications? 

This is why it's crucial that you do not make more than one change at a time. When you stop the metro, do not stop anything else, or add anything else. Continue the probiotics, continue the diet, no treats, etc. I can't emphasize this enough. 

If the diarrhea doesn't resolve after that, I really do think you need to see an IMS and start diagnostic testing for Gi disease. I truly hope that's not the case. Good luck.