Puppy food question

[Sara]

Not to be the "cheap loser" of DK, but I have had a bag of the Orijen large breed puppy in my online Chewy cart for days and I don't know whether to purchase it! What's making me hesitate is the large number of posts about it giving loose stools and being too high in protein content. It's too costly to purchase and then toss if it's a loose stool nightmare.
My breeder will send home a bag of the current puppy food (no idea what it is) when we pick him up mid-January, and I was going to start switching him right away. I know no one can say for sure how he will do on the Orijen, but if you were me, would you go ahead and purchase the Orijen or start him on a puppy food that's high quality but also has grains?

Thanks!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

It's doubtful that the protein content in Orijen was responsible for Freya's getting the runs. It may have been the fat content, it may have been a temporary adjustment thing if she was switched from something radically different like Purina, there's really no way to know. But Acana is made by the same company and is also an excellent brand.  

[Tara]

I would want to know what the breeder was feeding before I planned a switch.  Our breeder was feeding a high quality puppy food--one of the ones on the recommended food list here--yours could be too.

[BG and Gavin]

Even if the breeder is feeding a poor food, you should not make any changes at all for the first couple of weeks. That way if there are any stool issues due to parasites you will have not thrown a red herring into the mix by introducing a new food. Plus the poor pup is going through a drastic change leaving its home, you want to provide some comfort in a familiar food. If you decide to do a change down the line, build on what is working for the puppy already, for example go for a new food with similar ingredients (like chicken, fish or whatever). Ditch your cart and wait :)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

GMTA, lol.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Okay, you have a lot of different questions and issues here, so, let's take them one at a time. 

First, it's imperative that you do not switch your pup's food or change one single thing about his diet for at least two weeks after he comes home. Nothing new, no treats other than whatever the breeder is using, and the breeder's food. If the breeder doesn't give treats, use tiny pieces of plain boiled white meat chicken for training treats. There are many posts here in TFG about this, and I'll find and post a link to one in a second. 

Next, I don't know where you're seeing a large number of posts about Orijen being too high in protein, but it isn't here, lol. There is truly no such thing as a food being too high in protein for a dog. There are only three sources of calories: protein, fat and carbohydrate. Protein is a dog's natural food. Dogs eat other animals. Animals are made of protein and fat. Carbohydrates don't even enter the picture, they come from plants. Grains in dog foods are mostly fillers. Orijen contains 40% protein and 20% fat. That leaves 40% of the calories supplied by carbs. Less protein = more carbohydrate. 

Higher protein also usually equals smaller, firmer stool and less stool volume, since with less fillers, more of the food is being utilized. There have been a few pups who had loose stool on Orijen, but protein wasn't the problem, and it's not common, especially if the dog was eating a high quality food prior to switching. If your dog has good firm stool before switching to Orijen, and you do the switch correctly, it's unlikely that he will have loose stool from Orijen. 

All that said, some dogs do better on foods that do contain grains. The chowhound type of dogs who are always looking for food may be happier with a food that contains more filler because you feed more. 

Personally, I would always start any new dog on Orijen. But there are a lot of other good choices. 

I'd wait until you get your pup and see what kind of food the breeder is feeding and how your pup's digestion and eating habits are before choosing a new food. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Why you shouldn't change a puppy's food for at least two weeks after he comes home: (From the Food group):

It's critical that you not change anything about her diet for at least two weeks after she comes home. That means you keep her on the food and treats the breeder is feeding, even if they aren't so great.

Do not introduce any new treats or chews either. Keep her diet exactly the same as it was at the breeder's. 

Many, many doodle puppies come home with giardia and other parasites. Giardia has a 10-14 day incubation period, so it won;t show up in a fecal test right away. The excitement and stress of leaving the mother, the litter, and the only home the puppy has ever known can contribute to tummy troubles, too. And an 8 week old puppy has only been eating solid food of any kind for about 4 weeks, so the digestive system is very immature.

We have even had members whose brand new puppies had serious health issues resulting in digestive symptoms.

If you change the food before the dog has had a chance to settle in, and before any parasite issues have time to show up in a fecal test, and the dog has diarrhea, you will not know if it's caused by the food change, stress, parasites, or a digestive illness, and the breeder will blame it on the food change. Thus begins a journey of frustration trying to figure it out and an endless round of food changes. You also don;t want to do anything to upset that delicate digestive system, as diarrhea can cause a young puppy to dehydrate very quickly, and is going to make housebreaking a whole lot tougher.

So you wait. If you leave the dog's diet exactly as is, and diarrhea develops, you have just eliminated any connection to food as the cause, and saved yourself a lot of aggravation. And of course, if the puppy comes home with diarrhea that doesn't resolve in a day, you know your breeder sent you a puppy with an intestinal parasite and you can probably recoup the cost of the fecal testing and the treatment, lol. (I personally would have fecal done on any new puppy I got, along with a general once-over at the vet's office, but parasites may not show up right away.)

So wait at least two weeks. If, after two weeks, the stool is firm and regular and everything seems fine with the pup's digestion, you can start changing her over. Make only one change at a time. 

Read more here: http://www.doodlekisses.com/group/thefoodgroup/forum/topics/picking...

[Abigail *George & Juno*]

Both of our girls had some loose stools switching over, but they were also young puppies..puppies have sensitive stomachs. Most people also feed too much on orijen. We started ours as puppies on six fish in hopes we wouldn't have to do as much switching over all.
You might see if anyone around you carries it and maybe buy a small bag, though I know a few people who have asked to return something to chewy and Chewy just credits the purchase back to the customer and tell them to donate the food to a local shelter.
Also, not sure you should be getting the large breed. I think that's for truly massive adult dogs like mastiffs and Danes.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

All excellent points, Abigail.

I had missed the "large breed" thing in the original post. No doodle needs a "large breed" formula except possibly those few individuals who end up over 90 lbs. and even they don't really need a "large breed" formula.  

[Mauricio]

Whaaat? :)

I emailed Orijen directly about this, telling them my dog was expected to be 60lbs as an adult. They recommended the large breed formula.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Yes, the manufacturers recommend "large breed" formulas for any dog who is expected to be over 50 lbs as an adult. But it's more a marketing thing than a nutritional necessity. The differences in large breed formulas and regular formulas are infinitesimal. The large breed formulas are basically just a little lower in calories and a teeny tiny bit lower in certain minerals, the idea being that for giant breeds like Newfoundlands and Great Danes, whose skeletal growth continues well into their second years and who are at increased risk for orthopedic disease, you want to prevent them from getting too big too fast. But it's not necessary to feed "large breed" formulas to accomplish that, even for them. For normal sized doodles, it's absolutely unnecessary. 

[Mauricio]

Wow! Thanks! and just in time as I need to get a new bag this weekend. I'll get the regular Orijen puppy then.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

:)