Puppy With Sensitive Tummy

[Jerry Kandel]

We finally got a brother for Bailey - his name is Kobe and is four months old. We have had him a few weeks shy of two months - and got him from a reputable breeder and from the same breeder where we got Bailey. Kobe has had continually loose stools - better described as a small mound of mush. We are feeding him Taste of the Wild Grain Free. He is not lethargic - he has doubled his weight in two months (10 lbs to 20 lbs) - but he rarely (read: almost never) has formed stools. We did a stool sample with our vet and it came back negative. Our breeder de-wormed him prior to our getting him. We are at a loss as to what to do to have him have regular hard formed stools. We don't know whether we should change foods (perhaps he is allergic to one of the ingredients in TOTW) - our breeder suggested getting Probiotic Max - she said that she has had good luck using that.  Is anyone familiar with Probiotic max?

Hope someone can help

Thanks

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Nutro is not one of our recommended brands. It's owned and made by Mars. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Jerry, how many fecal tests have been done, and when was the last one?

It is extremely unlikely that a young puppy would be allergic to his food, and chronic loose stool is not a sign of allergies; an intolerance, possibly, but even that is unlikely in such a young dog. 

Probiotics are not a bad idea to aid with digestion, but rather than buying the product your breeder recommended, I would give him two tablespoons of plain unflavored fat-free yogurt twice a day. You may also want to try boosting the fiber in his diet by adding some plain cooked sweet potatoes to his meals. 

You might consider switching him to Orijen and another grain-free food with higher protein and a better Omega 6:3 ratio than TOTW.

What kind of treats and chews is he getting? 

[Jerry Kandel]

Hi - he usually eats Zukes mini chicken treats (not a lot - we use it mainly for training purposes).

[Jerry Kandel]

Not sure what you mean by the following: "You might consider switching him to Orijen and another grain-free food with higher protein and a better Omega 6:3 ratio than TOTW."

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Sometimes, a higher protein food helps with firming up stools; foods that are high in carbohydrates tend to produce bulkier, looser stools in some dogs because there is more filler in them and hence, more waste products. (My sentence should have read "Orijen OR another grain-free food")  TOTW, while grain-free, is lower in protein than many other grain-free foods, and also has a very poor Omega 6:3 ratio. Omega 3 fatty acids sometimes help with digestive issues as well. 

[Jerry Kandel]

Our breeder checked with her vet and told us to get this: Purina EN Gastroenteric® Canine Formula

Don't know if anyone is familiar with it and, if so, how it compares to Orijen.

[Leslie, Yogi & Maci Bear]

Jerry, I'd listen to Karen. She knows her stuff.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I see that you haven't had a chance to read through any of our discussions here. :)

Veterinarians receive no nutritional education in vet school, and know nothing about dog food. This may seem shocking to you until you consider that human doctors don't study nutrition, either. That's a different field. Th big difference is that your doctor doesn't sell food.

Rx food is the worst garbage you can buy, and you pay a fortune for it. It contains no medicinal or therapeutic ingredients, and what is in there is the cheapest crap you can imagine. Take a look at what your breeder's vet thinks is a wholesome diet for a puppy: 

Brewers rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, chicken meal, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), coconut oil, calcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, wheat bran, animal digest, potassium chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, sodium bicarbonate, salt, fish oil, zinc proteinate, Vitamin E supplement, dried colostrum, choline chloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, copper proteinate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite

Corn and wheat are the two foods most likely to cause food allergies in dogs. It's also cheap garbage:

Corn Gluten

An inexpensive by-product of human food processing which offers very little nutritional value and serves mainly to bind food together. It is not a harmful ingredient but should be avoided simply for its poor nutritional value and quality.

Brewer's rice, which is listed first and is therefore the most plentiful ingredient in this food, is basically leftover waste material from grain processing for alcohol products. 

Brewers Rice

Also appears in ingredient lists as ground Brewers Rice. AAFCO: The small milled fragments of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice. A processed rice product that is missing many of the nutrients contained in whole ground rice and brown rice. Contrary to what many pet food companies want to make you believe, this is not a high quality ingredient, just much cheaper than whole grain rice. Animal Digest is a flavoring agent that is almost too disgusting to describe, so we'll let The Dog Food Project do that: Animal Digest AAFCO: A material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and undecomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed. If it bears a name descriptive of its kind or flavor(s), it must correspond thereto. A cooked-down broth made from unspecified parts of unspecified animals. The animals used can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters, restaurant and supermarket refuse and so on. You also have unnamed animal fat: Animal Fat AAFCO: Obtained from the tissues of mammals and/or poultry in the commercial processes of rendering or extracting. It consists predominantly of glyceride esters of fatty acids and contains no additions of free fatty acids. If an antioxidant is used, the common name or names must be indicated, followed by the words "used as a preservative". Note that the animal source is not specified and is not required to originate from "slaughtered" animals. The rendered animals can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters, restaurant and supermarket refuse and so on. Last but far from least, you have menadione sodium bisulfite, a very dangerous synthetic form of vitamin K which has been banned from use in animal feeds in most other industrialized countries, and is use only in the cheapest pet foods. Even the grocery stores brands have stopped using it. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione Here is a list of negative effects of menadione on the body. causes cytotoxicity in liver cells causes formation of radicals from enzymes of leucocytes, with the consequence of cytotoxic reactions considerably weakens the immune system possible mutagenic effects damages the natural vitamin K cycle has no effect on coumarin derivatives, which are often present in commercial food due to mold contamination (toxic when ingested) causes hemolytic anemia and hyperbilirubinemia, not just linked to large doses disturbs the level of calcium ions (Ca2+) in the body, which is an important factor fibrinolysis is directly toxic in high doses (vomiting, albuminuria), unlike natural vitamin K builds up in tissue and has been detected in eggs, meat and milk of animals supplemented with menadione derivatives causes irritation of skin and mucous membranes causes allergic reactions and eczema   I don't think this is what you want to feed your puppy, is it???

[Leslie, Yogi & Maci Bear]

Btw, there is no comparing this stuff to Origen.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

No they are not even in the same universe, lol. And we haven't even discussed the manufacturing or sourcing of the ingredients. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Jerry, there is more than 5 years worth of solid research on canine nutrition and foods here in this group. Please take some time to read through some of our discussions, especially our featured discussions. 

Here are a couple to start you off:

Recommended Brands

Why You Should Say No When Your Vet Recommends RX Food

[Jill, Woody & Maxi]

Jerry, 

We went through a situation very similar to yours.  I would have his fecal retested.  Giardia has an incubation period, meaning, you can have the fecal done, and it can still come back normal for a period of time, though there are things lurking in the stool.  The RX food is garbage, poor quality ingredients.  Your best bet would be to cook up a batch of boneless, skinless chicken breast,and also bake or microwave a bunch of sweet potatoes.  Peel them, mash them, and there you go! A simple "bland" diet.  When was the last fecal done? Retest, if it comes back positive, I would ask the vet for Panacur (over Metronidazole), and be sure to supplement with a probiotic, yogurt, etc