Dinner Challenges with Almost 6-month-old doodle

[Shari Becker]

Comment by Shari Becker just now

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Hi Jane, Sorry about that. Will try to do that ASAP.

Comment by Jane, Guinness and Murphy 2 hours ago

Shari, would you mind starting a discussion with your questions....that way you'll get more responses.  If you'd rather, let me know and I can do the "cut and paste".

Comment by Gwyndolyn Morasko 9 hours ago

And as for the price of the training, I WISH that my trainer was as affordable as yours.  I'm only doing 6 sessions for $115 each.  That is the normal price for one dog.  Since she is only staying for the one hour, and since she knows and loves my pups from daycare, she is working with both for the same price.  But $100 per hour for private training is very common.  Your best bet is to go to a PetSmart for group beginner or even puppy kindergarten classes.  I think I paid $150 or $190 for 8 group sessions for his puppy school.  (I must admit that I wasn't that impressed with the teacher, but the socializing and distractions of the customers and other dogs in the store during lessons made it worth it to get him used to listening around distractions. 

Comment by Gwyndolyn Morasko 9 hours ago

I caught the "85% potty trained at 9 months" comment.  I remember being concerned when Kona had an accident at 11 weeks old!  He was using the "hit the hanging bell at the back door" method by about 10 weeks old, and his last "intentional" accident was at 11 or 12 weeks old.  The few after that were very unintentional accidents and completely my fault for not hearing the bell.  Poor guy crossed his legs for just so long!  If you haven't tried the bell method, you can google it.  When I adopted a 10 month old stray this summer, she learned it from Kona in one day, so older puppies can learn quickly too.

Crating at dinner time with zero reprieve is what worked for Kona.  Now that he has a sister, he reverts to barking a few times, when I'm eating but I just growl my alpha mom growl at him and he lays down pretty quickly. Sometimes I have to stand up over him and growl, but mostly seated growling does the trick.  The trainer I hired last month to help with some of the barking and recall issues told me that holding him down to stop bad behavior was rewarding him because his mom was touching him.  The non-touching growling is more how his mom would correct her pups from a distance. You might feel silly growling, but it is working for me.  (And this barking and begging behavior didn't start for him until I adopted Maggie when Kona was 10 months old, so it can be reversed even as an older pup, but only with consistent approach by everyone in the house.) As a young pup, he was extremely good about being silent in his crate while I ate.  I must have done it from day one, so he always just laid down for a nap until I got up from the table and cleared the dishes.  Then he would stand up and be ready to be let out of his crate.  (I wish he was that good when I'm eating a snack in another room an not at the table!  Maggie can be lying on my lap while I have food inches from her nose, but she NEVER begs.  The scraggly stray is the sweet obedient one.  Who knew!?!  I wish Kona would learn from her! 

Comment by Ronna, Murphy & Wilson 12 hours ago

Shari, you need to utilize the crate. When you crate her and she barks and then yuk let her out because you can't stand the barking.... You have just rewarded her and she now she knows that barking equals getting out of the crate. Yes! You need a basic obedience class. One of the things you will learn is a long duration down stay which will be invaluable for situations like family dinner time. Until then, if you can't control the dog you must control the environment which means crating during your family meals and not letting her have alone time access to your rug. Good luck!

Comment by BG and Gavin 12 hours ago

Hi Shari - the comment section does not readily lend itself to much feedback.  What I am hoping that you will do is copy your entire comment, go above to the left of the comment box to add a discussion.  Open a new discussion and paste your comment there.  Once you have done that, I (and others I am sure) will respond with advice :)

Comment by Shari Becker 12 hours ago

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Hello everyone. I am sure I'm not the first to post about either of these challenges, but I'm a first time puppy owner, and I'm really struggling to get a handle on these two bad habits. I'd love some advice. I know I should probably sign up for a puppy training class, but they seem so expensive around me. ($300 for six classes? Is it me, or is that insane? $600 for 12.)

1) Lexi She spends the entire meal time jumping up, trying to steal food. She frequently succeeds. If we crate her, she barks non stop for the entire meal. If we put her outside the kitchen, she does the same. We feed her before we eat, so she isn't hungry. The only way we can eat in peace is if someone literally sits with their hand in her harness, holding her down. Holding a dog while eating is hard, too. Because we live in a two family - with poor sound insulation - we can't really leave her barking.  I'd love any advice!

2) Our second challenge is that Lexi has decided our hall rug is her favorite chew toy. I have sprayed it down with bitter apple so many times, but she doesn't seem to mind the taste. When I catch her, I say "No" and I put her in the kitchen, which is totally contained, but a day later, she's back at it.  We can't remove the rug because our floors are freezing AND our condo rules say we need to have a carpet there. She's 85% house broken, and I hate to make her stay in the kitchen all day. (She hates it, too.) Am I missing something? Is there a trick I don't know? Again, would love some suggestions!

Thanks,

Shari

Read more here: http://www.doodlekisses.com/group/trainingmindsets?commentId=206524...

[Shari Becker]

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Hi Jane, Sorry about that. Will try to do that ASAP.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Shari, would you mind starting a discussion with your questions....that way you'll get more responses.  If you'd rather, let me know and I can do the "cut and paste".

[Gwyndolyn Morasko]

And as for the price of the training, I WISH that my trainer was as affordable as yours.  I'm only doing 6 sessions for $115 each.  That is the normal price for one dog.  Since she is only staying for the one hour, and since she knows and loves my pups from daycare, she is working with both for the same price.  But $100 per hour for private training is very common.  Your best bet is to go to a PetSmart for group beginner or even puppy kindergarten classes.  I think I paid $150 or $190 for 8 group sessions for his puppy school.  (I must admit that I wasn't that impressed with the teacher, but the socializing and distractions of the customers and other dogs in the store during lessons made it worth it to get him used to listening around distractions. 

[Gwyndolyn Morasko]

I caught the "85% potty trained at 9 months" comment.  I remember being concerned when Kona had an accident at 11 weeks old!  He was using the "hit the hanging bell at the back door" method by about 10 weeks old, and his last "intentional" accident was at 11 or 12 weeks old.  The few after that were very unintentional accidents and completely my fault for not hearing the bell.  Poor guy crossed his legs for just so long!  If you haven't tried the bell method, you can google it.  When I adopted a 10 month old stray this summer, she learned it from Kona in one day, so older puppies can learn quickly too.

Crating at dinner time with zero reprieve is what worked for Kona.  Now that he has a sister, he reverts to barking a few times, when I'm eating but I just growl my alpha mom growl at him and he lays down pretty quickly. Sometimes I have to stand up over him and growl, but mostly seated growling does the trick.  The trainer I hired last month to help with some of the barking and recall issues told me that holding him down to stop bad behavior was rewarding him because his mom was touching him.  The non-touching growling is more how his mom would correct her pups from a distance. You might feel silly growling, but it is working for me.  (And this barking and begging behavior didn't start for him until I adopted Maggie when Kona was 10 months old, so it can be reversed even as an older pup, but only with consistent approach by everyone in the house.) As a young pup, he was extremely good about being silent in his crate while I ate.  I must have done it from day one, so he always just laid down for a nap until I got up from the table and cleared the dishes.  Then he would stand up and be ready to be let out of his crate.  (I wish he was that good when I'm eating a snack in another room an not at the table!  Maggie can be lying on my lap while I have food inches from her nose, but she NEVER begs.  The scraggly stray is the sweet obedient one.  Who knew!?!  I wish Kona would learn from her! 

[Ronna, Murphy & Wilson]

Shari, you need to utilize the crate. When you crate her and she barks and then yuk let her out because you can't stand the barking.... You have just rewarded her and she now she knows that barking equals getting out of the crate. Yes! You need a basic obedience class. One of the things you will learn is a long duration down stay which will be invaluable for situations like family dinner time. Until then, if you can't control the dog you must control the environment which means crating during your family meals and not letting her have alone time access to your rug. Good luck!

[BG and Gavin]

Hi Shari - the comment section does not readily lend itself to much feedback.  What I am hoping that you will do is copy your entire comment, go above to the left of the comment box to add a discussion.  Open a new discussion and paste your comment there.  Once you have done that, I (and others I am sure) will respond with advice :)

[Shari Becker]

Delete Comment

Hello everyone. I am sure I'm not the first to post about either of these challenges, but I'm a first time puppy owner, and I'm really struggling to get a handle on these two bad habits. I'd love some advice. I know I should probably sign up for a puppy training class, but they seem so expensive around me. ($300 for six classes? Is it me, or is that insane? $600 for 12.)

1) Lexi She spends the entire meal time jumping up, trying to steal food. She frequently succeeds. If we crate her, she barks non stop for the entire meal. If we put her outside the kitchen, she does the same. We feed her before we eat, so she isn't hungry. The only way we can eat in peace is if someone literally sits with their hand in her harness, holding her down. Holding a dog while eating is hard, too. Because we live in a two family - with poor sound insulation - we can't really leave her barking.  I'd love any advice!

2) Our second challenge is that Lexi has decided our hall rug is her favorite chew toy. I have sprayed it down with bitter apple so many times, but she doesn't seem to mind the taste. When I catch her, I say "No" and I put her in the kitchen, which is totally contained, but a day later, she's back at it.  We can't remove the rug because our floors are freezing AND our condo rules say we need to have a carpet there. She's 85% house broken, and I hate to make her stay in the kitchen all day. (She hates it, too.) Am I missing something? Is there a trick I don't know? Again, would love some suggestions!

Thanks,

Shari

[Shari Becker]

HI everyone, Sorry for my posting this wrong initially. I've moved it into it's own discussion. Just to clarify a few points: the puppy is almost 6 months. She is very close to house broken. Accidents have been few and far apart at this point and the last two have been human failure, not puppy failure. (Like a tween who decided that the dog didn't have to pee after 30 seconds of being outside on a cold day.) Of course, the puppy did have to go, so she peed by the front door. Also, the dog doesn't have access to our whole house. Just two rooms, really. If she's alone at home, she is locked in her crate. I work from home, so during the day I let her roam between the kitchen and the hallway which form an "L" shape. (She can see me in my office from there and will generally play or rest happily on the other side of her gate watching me.) I'm glad to hear that the training is not crazy expensive ... These are for small group classes, though, not one on ones. But I will splurge and sign up because it sounds like we need it. :-) I will crate her during dinner tonight, too. I just thought it would be nice for the dog to be able to sit with her pack... 

[Adina P]

I'm amazed at the cost of training in some places.  It is really prohibitive for a huge number of dog owners. 
I used do-it-yourself program and did on my own with all dogs and have had excellent success because the program was excellent.

I'm with the others and keep her in her crate.

Is there a way to attach her leash to a doorknob or other furniture that would allow her enough leash length to be near but not near enough to reach the table or your chair?  Then she can be nearby without being a pest.
There is also a way to wrap the leash around your chair (the actual seat) and sit on it while the dog has only enough leash length to lay down.  I'd have to look up the directions or video tape it myself to show you.  But it's a great self-control exercise for the dog.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Shari, thanks for starting a separate discussion.  Here are a few of my thoughts...

1) Lexi She spends the entire meal time jumping up, trying to steal food. She frequently succeeds. If we crate her, she barks non stop for the entire meal. If we put her outside the kitchen, she does the same. We feed her before we eat, so she isn't hungry. The only way we can eat in peace is if someone literally sits with their hand in her harness, holding her down. Holding a dog while eating is hard, too. Because we live in a two family - with poor sound insulation - we can't really leave her barking.  I'd love any advice!

 Every single time that Lexi is able to jump up and steal food she is being rewarded in this behavior.  She's reinforced and that is an encouragement for her to do it more and more.  I would not have someone physically hold her down....that doesn't teach her anything and only adds more frustration.  Normally I would say to crate her and let her learn that her barking will not get her what she wants.  Is there any way that you could enlist the understanding of your neighbors for just a few nights....I really don't believe it would take any longer than that?  If not, I think your best bet is to teach her down/stay.  This will take a little time and effort, but my experience is that they do not bark in a down/stay.  Have you worked on that...if not, would you like help in how to train that command?

2) Our second challenge is that Lexi has decided our hall rug is her favorite chew toy. I have sprayed it down with bitter apple so many times, but she doesn't seem to mind the taste. When I catch her, I say "No" and I put her in the kitchen, which is totally contained, but a day later, she's back at it.  We can't remove the rug because our floors are freezing AND our condo rules say we need to have a carpet there. She's 85% house broken, and I hate to make her stay in the kitchen all day. (She hates it, too.) Am I missing something? Is there a trick I don't know? Again, would love some suggestions!

 Again, this will take some time.  She's not going to be able to have access to that rug unless someone is available to watch and correct her.  This is another self-reinforcing behavior.  If you're not watching her she should be in the kitchen.  When she does have access to the hallway watch her and the second she starts to put her mouth on the rug verbally correct her and give her something else to chew on.  If you use leash corrections, that will also teach her that this isn't allowed.  When she stops chewing and redirects....that's when I'd reward with a treat or praise or just a "good girl".

[BG and Gavin]

Hi Shari,

Re: training costs - do you live in an area where there is a Petsmart?  Training there is quite a bit cheaper and lots of times there are coupons and things you can source out to get a better rate.  Group training is great for socialization and to hold you accountable week to week.  Plus it is fun.  If you can't swing that, ask your vet for any trainers she/he knows.  If that does not work out, there are several training programs you can follow on line or get DVDs through Amazon.  Adina has posted about some good ones with clips free on Youtube - hopefully she will chime back in with the names.

Re: day-to-day training - The first thing I would do is practice tethering the dog to you for as much time as you can manage during the day.  Where you go, the dog goes.  It forces the dog to pay attention to you and you are right there to reward for good behaviour or redirect bad behaviour.  Like Jane said, every time they practice something bad, it is reinforced.  Try not to talk too much - just move about your daily activity.

If you are not doing so already, I would up the exercise your dog is getting.  A tired dog is more likely to settle better in the evening and those down/stays will turn into down/naps.  Please keep us informed.  There is a wealth of information in discussions contained in this group.  I recommend you read as many as you can.

[Shari Becker]

Thanks so much for all your good feedabck. (I'm replying to a few posts at once if that's okay.)

We have been crating her for the past two nights at dinner time, and while it has been er ... loud, she settled down much faster the second night than the first. There's no Petsmart super close, but there is a local chain petsore that runs it's own classes - I will look into those. If those don't work, we may just need to suck up the steep price tag because everything in our area is expensive no matter how you shake it. And she could use the socialization of a group experience.

I have a question about tethering though. I'm a writer who works from home. I spend huge chunks of time just sitting. The office is small, and there's not too much space for the dog. I've tried tethering her in here, and she's not super happy. She ends up protesting until she  just lays at my feet with no where to go. She'd apparently rather hang out alone in the kitchen where she can roam.  I'm not sure I'm really teaching her anything by being in here with me... If you suggest tethering, are you talking about during the times of day I'm roaming around cleaning or making a meal? 

Finally, with the leash correction, you're talking about just giving a yank or pull from behind, right?

Thanks,

Shari

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I'm glad the crating at dinner is starting to work....just stay consistent.  If you do it some nights but not others she will become confused about the expectation.  I personally think 6 mos is still kind of young for an untrained dog (who has already chewed) to have the freedom to roam.  If it were me I would have her in the office with me.  Give her an antler to chew or some other type of chew toy and she should be fine.  Just be sure to give her some regularly scheduled potty and exercise breaks.  When I mention corrections, yes just a quick tug on the collar (I don't know what type of collar you're using) and a stern (but calm) verbal "no".  I would reserve this for those times when she knows the expectation but doesn't follow it....like chewing the rug.  If you catch her in the act you can correct, but it has to be the instant she does it.

[Lynda Kamrath]

Shari, I think you are doing the right thing with crating her at dinner time.  She needs to know that jumping up to get some food will not be rewarded.  Like with children, it gets less every day as she learns it is not acceptable behavior.  If you can only ignore the fussing!

What do you mean by tethering?  Keeping her tied to you?  Laying at your feet with nowhere to go sounds like what you may want.  But do remember to take frequent breaks for both of you and take a little walk and bathroom stops.  I would not tether her when you are cleaning or making a meal.  At those times, just put her in the crate while you are busy.  It will get easier every day.

About the rug.  Many puppies are just natural chewers and they do outgrow it.  Our last puppy chewed on the cabinets and the deck (not so much shoes or clothes).   We kept everything picked up but not much you can do with the deck.  My husband discovered that he really disliked Tabasco sauce so he would buy big bottles of it and put it on the edges of the deck where he liked to chew.  That took care of the deck.  So, if she seems to like bitter apple, find something that she does not like and get a big dauber and put that on the things she likes to chew.  Keep all shoes and clothing picked up and behind doors. I still put my shoes up on the high windowsill in the bathroom.  It has become a habit with me.  This, also, will pass and she will become a great dog.  Keep it up, it is worth it.

[BG and Gavin]

I did not realize that you worked from home.  It would be unrealistic to have her tethered to you all day.  I made Gavin stay in the same room as I did when he was a puppy (even put him in the bathroom with me while I showered) but it was because we both worked and he had to be in the crate when we left.  I did not want him to be in it any more than he had to.  I think it is a good bonding exercise beyond just providing supervision so he cannot practice bad behaviour.  As to the tethering, aim for one hour per day.  Hook him up to you when you get up to stretch, put in a load of laundry, check the mail, prepare dinner or do dishes.

[Shari Becker]

After over a week of crating Lexi during dinner, we are moving onto plan "B", a tight leash at the dinner table. She pretty much never stopped barking for the entire week, and it was clear that approach wasn't working. She's not a dog who likes her crate despite all sorts of tricks and treats and training. Two nights on the leash, and she's been great during dinner time - mostly in an extended down position. She is clearly agitated, though. The minute we stand up to clear, she is ready to pounce. Even on leash, tethered, she keeps trying to get back to the table. She's agitated and frenetic, too ... like she knows she's not supposed to do it, but can hardly control herself. Baby steps, I guess...

[BG and Gavin]

Can you "catch her being good"?  For example, if she is down and quiet for 30 seconds, give her a treat, then stretch it out to a minute, then 2, 5, etc.  Otherwise don't make eye contact or speak to her.  Also have people get up and leave the table one at a time, the remaining person that has the dog stays on longer and once she is settled again, reward and then the last person leaves.  Trying to picture your situation and throw out ideas :)

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Shari, have you ever tried just gating her in another room where she can't even see you have dinner?  It really seems like the whole experience of the family having dinner (and even clearing after dinner) is very unsettling to her. 

[Shari Becker]

One of the challenges we face is just the way our home is laid out. It's all on one floor, and it's very hard to hide or not be seen. 

For the past two days we've been keeping her on leash, in the kitchen, while we eat and clean the table / load the dishwasher. My husband actually tethered her to the fridge last night, and she whined a little at first, but then went into the "down" position for almost ten minutes while he stacked. He rewarded her every few minutes, and she was great. We also tethered her to the table at dinner with our foot on the leash, and she stayed in "down" under the table for the whole meal. I think we are making great progress! The barking seems like it's more related to being cut off from us than anything else. No way I'd let her off leash, but she is definitely getting the hang of this new system.

Thanks everyone for all your help!

Shari