Growling - when is it ok?

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

Rip and I just returned from the first annual vet check (he is 14 months) and Dr Marc asked how he behaves with the kids. I casually mentioned that my 13 yr old (special needs) will sometimes bother Rip when he (Rip) is tired. Rippley will occasionally emit a small growl or walk away. He has never, ever snapped. My son is a sensory seeker and not always does Rip want all this (well intentioned) pets and pats and abrupt, sometimes loud touching - so I thought a warning growl was a good thing and I would try to remove my son from the situation post-growl. But, Dr. Marc said he would discipline the growl and that it shouldn't happen. I asked what exactly he would do. He basically described how to teach Rip "place" as a way to immediately separate the two. I'm not sure that's exactly discipline, but it is smartly putting safety first, and I totally get it - but I still blame my son more than the poor dog ;).
I totally trust Rip because he never guards, will let everyone take balls or toys away nicely, has been so super sweet always... but perhaps it is endangering Rip to trust him so much? Has anyone had/solved this issue? TIA!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I too have a special needs son who is now a young adult.  For quite awhile Murphy decided that he was going to intimidate my son.  He would try to back him away from me and would occasionally growl....he was being territorial.  My son was very afraid of him and would always back down.  I had to actually "claim" my son....every time Murph would try to get between us or verbalize in any way, I would verbally correct,  back him up and go put my arms around my son.  By doing this I was saying...."he's mine and I'm the leader here not you...so back off."   Murphy got the message, and my son now has a lot more confidence.  Our dogs are so darn smart and mine can be very manipulative....always a challenge. 

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

Love this - that you communicated in ways Murphy could understand - so great. He's a lucky dog.

[Judith and Addie]

My two cents.

I agree with everyone here who has said that you should not take the growl away or discipline for the growl, because it is a warning. Without a warning, a dog may go directly to the snap/bite. I also agree that Rippley should have a safe place and your son should learn to respect this place.

May be you could work with Rippley to go to his safe place when your son is arousing him, instead of only walking away. Does Rip have a "place" or a "go to mat" command?  And is it to a place he would be comfortable staying? If so, then use it and give him positive reinforcement to train him to go there when he is getting too much attention. If he doesn't have the command and the place, work with him on it. Can you work with your son to leave Rippley alone once he hears a growl?

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

Thanks Susan and Judith, I will work on 'place.' I will also definitely try something different with my son. Explaining and telling him to stop hasn't worked - there are impulsive issues. What is that saying about the definition of 'frustration' is trying the same ineffective methods over and over? Something like that. Is there a kid-kisses? ;)

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Here is my kid-kisses response:  If your son learns that a growl is a warning he honors, he will be rewarded, you have won a huge battle. Reward your son for moving away when he hears a growl.  It needs to be immediate and small like an M and M.  Use a simple 'command word' with him when you want to warn your son away from Rippley because you can see Rippley needs a break. Use the same immediate, small reward. Eventually, you can use it when you feel it is appropriate to call him away from Ripley before the growl and you can phase out the small treat to praise.

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

Thanks, Nancy - I really appreciate your thoughts here! Though I wish, I wish, I wish it were easy as an m&m (here, boy - treat! Lol!) but this is a good cognitive behavioral method. I'll mull it over and try it out. Bribery definitely has it's place ;) though as he gets older (13) it becomes much more complicated...the dog is way easier!! Thanks again.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I am a retired special ed. teacher and simple commands with immediate rewards was pretty successful to help shape behavior. It does sound lots like dog training.  My son who is the Mr. Mom for four little ones ages 5, 4, 3, 2, says he relies on his former dog training classes every day!  Cracks me up!  We just tell him what goes around, comes around and he is now living the curse we put on him when he was an extremely busy little guy!  Short commands with 99% follow through!  He is exhausted and his wife wants to get a dog!  :-}

[Susan and Bentley]

Does Rip have a place he likes to go to?  You could also tell your son when Ripley is there, not to bother him?  Again, we all hate growling but there are certainly all levels of growling.  But a low, soft growl means I'm uncomfortable or unhappy - they can't talk.  There's a big difference between that and a mean, snarling growl.  But working with him and your son is also a great idea. 

[Kate, Mel, Tenley & Harper]

I agree with those saying not to punish the growl and I actually wouldn't worry about rewarding it by removing the stimulus (your son) either.

I agree with others about establishing a place or safe space where Rip can go. I would feed him there, give him all treats there, etc. and don't let anyone bother or touch him there. If it's a place that resembles a den (under a table or between a chair and a wall, etc.) I think that's even better because he'll feel safer. 

Once he feels safe there, I think he's smart enough that it will naturally follow that if you direct him there every time he responds to your son with a growl and you are very consistent in that it isn't some place he is ever bothered, he will start getting up to go there on his own and the growl may even be prevented. Your directing him there the first few times will be more of a "hey ripley, remember you have that safe place where you won't be bothered?"

For example, that place to Tenley has always been his crate. And he knows it. I, or anyone, won't touch him in his crate. So when he's really tired, that is where he chooses to nap safely. Now, if there is anything he doesn't want to participate in (like the other night when we had a bunch of guests over for dinner and he was 'done' with greeting them and wanted to go to bed) he went in his crate and knew no one would bother him there. When we were visiting family and there were little kids running around and he was done playing with them, he put himself in his crate and took a nap because he knows they won't bother him there (and the kids were instructed to leave him alone when in the crate). So I think over time the same would happen with Ripley-- he would start seeking his "spot" to get away from your son rather than feeling the need to growl.

Just my two cents... I know that it works really well for Tenley and he and Ripley seemed to be of the same "spirit" when we met up!

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

:) thanks, Katelyn!

[Susan and Bentley]

Kate that is great advice!  Thank you for sharing!

[Missy]

I am not an expert, but my experience with our dood at 2 yrs, I agree with the vet.  I have found that especially when our dood is tired and rough children come around, he went into a growl.  I (for fear it would move from growl to snap), immediately grabbed dogs nose and said NO.  I gave instruction to the dog to remove himself from the children, go find a different spot to relax.

amazingly, after several instances, our dog removes himself from the situation. no growling. I am always sure to give him a safe place to go.

when our dog is well rested, he loves the kids, doesn't mind them crawling all over him, but when he is tired...different story.  I guess we all need our rest!!

just wanted to say, yes, you can train your dog to remove himself to a safe place.