The "Dreaded Trip To The Petstore" With Murph

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I thought I'd start here, since I think many of us have gone through this experience (or go through it regularly).  Because I'm trying so hard to be in a "new mindset" and expect more of Murphy, DH and I decided to "bite the bullet" and take the boys to Petco yesterday.  We had a "game plan" worked out....we would keep them separated in the store, and DH would take Guinness while I walked with Murphy.  I got myself all "psyched" for this, took several deep breaths in the car, stood up straight, and in we went.  I was hoping there would be other dogs in the store (because that's his "downfall"), and there were.  When I saw the first one is when I started to sweat....yes, literally.  Murph did his usual lunge when he spotted the dog.  I was ready, stepped into him to let the leash go loose, and gave him a quick "tug".  Woo Hoo, he turned around to look at me.  I quickly gave him a little treat, and at that point the dog disappeared into an aisle.  Okay, we dodged the first bullet. Then we headed for the "squeaker toys"...his favorite thing.  He immediately found one he LOVED, and I gave it to him and let him carry it in his mouth for the rest of the time.  This may have been a mistake...I'm really not sure.  Was I indulging him because of my own insecurities...maybe?  Anyway, he was happy as could be, and that toy took most of his attention.  As I think back on it, I should probably have been trying to focus all his attention on ME and not the toy.  Oh well, I'm learning.  We stayed in the toy aisle for a while, and then the really long walk to the cash register (with Murph still carrying his prize squeaker toy).  There was another dog ahead of us in the line.  You guessed it....lunging (but no barking because the toy was still in his mouth).  I put him in a "sit/stay", which he did quickly....HE CAN DO IT.  No treats this time, because he had his toy.  He never took his eyes off that other dog though, and was making some "growly" noises.  I'm not sure...should I have corrected that?   We just waited until they were finished and left.  Then it was our turn at the register.  We managed to pay and get out of the store with NO MAJOR EVENTS.  Now I know that Murph (and I) and I can do it.  I'll definitely be less worried the next time.  I'd love some feedback on how other Doodles do in this situation, and how you manage to make it a "fun experience".  I did all this with Guinness (and still do), but he never was reactive the way that Murphy is.  His only challenge was that he wanted to meet all the people in the store, and I had to teach him that he couldn't jump on them.  But he only weights 18 pounds (and when I was training him he only weighted about 12 pounds), so that was a whole different scenario.

[Christine & Shelby]

I haven't had this situation you are describing with Murphy. Shelby is very social in the pet stores, wants to say hi to everyone and leash pulling is my biggest concern... as is jumping up on people but that is more so a problem at home and while on walks... not in public shopping areas. I am interested to see what sort of advice you receive though. Good luck... I am thinking with more individual exposure and correction as you navigate the store... you should see improvement. :o)

[Adina P]

You did great Jane! I would have corrected the growling but it all depends on how you have defined (or want to define) the 'sit stay'. You draw the boundaries and then set the limits and let Murphy know what they are. As my dogs learn stays I don't correct for sounds they make, but as they are better at it I up the ante and make growling, barking, and other such things incompatible, by definition, with "stay". A trainer described it to me like this. If construction workers are 'at work' they have no business whistling and hollering at passerby. So Rosco has no business barking/growling and being a nuisance...if he's 'on the clock.'

The first time I took Rosco into a pet store as part of training, we first worked in the parking lot. Heeling, sitting, staying outside. Then heeling to the door and back and to the door and back. When I felt he was under control...we entered and heeled up and down aisles starting with the 'easy' aisles first. Easy aisles like the shampoo and collar and non-toy, non-treat aisles. If he seemed to be on the ball we'd try the toy aisles and the treat aisles. We would make left and right turns, doing sit and down stays both in and out of sight (depending on where we were in training).

I always have some 'nervousness' when training in places like that. Always. I don't think it's always bad. It just means you care about you're doing and have a little stage fright. Obviously too much can work against you, but it gets better as you do it more.

As for making it 'fun'...I've never concerned myself with 'fun' because I think my dogs enjoy training overall and enjoy being in petstores. They have lots of fun in their free time...work time is focus time. One small, maybe semantic only, difference is that I'm more interested in a dog focusing on his task (sit, heel, down, stay) then on 'me' specifically. So if Rosco is in a sit or down stay...I couldn't care less where he looks as long as he holds his stay. I want him focused on the task first and foremost. In the training he has no choice but to focus on me for a lot of things, but he doesn't have to LOOK at me constantly.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

The concept of "fun" in training is pretty interesting and probably points to how differently things can be viewed among trainers. My trainer's approach has it's own "look and feel". There's lots of energy and engagement throughout the training sessions. When she's training, the dogs even look different. Their heads are up...their tails are often wagging, and they never take their eyes off of her. They are working, and they are having a ball. That's what I'm trying to learn from her. Her philosophy is that it's as much about building the relationship as it is about the tasks themselves. At the beginning of our session last week Murphy and I did a "heel" exercise around the training center while she watched. He actually did well, but when we stopped she pointed out that he was not engaged, his tail was down, he never looked at me. That's when we got into the whole relationship discussion. By the time we left, that same exercise looked completely different.

[Adina P]

I agree about the building a relationship part of training...I think by being careful it is a natural byproduct. I didn't really TRY to build a relationship with Rosco directly while we trained, it grew because of the time I spent in training. I became his favorite person when, as a pup, he was pretty independent and couldn't care less.

I guess the kind of 'focus on me' that sort of turns me off is the way some dogs are taught to crane their necks to look up at the handler during heeling. If I want to heel my dog for a 30 minute walk, that would be unfairly uncomfortable and he'd not get to enjoy the world around him for being stuck staring at me. It's fine if heel is only used for a quick performance, but in real life I want commands that allow the dog to obey and relax. Such as the down. I don't need the down to be held in a Sphinx-like position where the dog must stare at me. I want Rosco and Boca to be able to relax in the down-stay, lie on their side if they want, but maintain the down until released.

Since our training doesn't have a specific "look at me" component I figured Rosco rarely looked my way...until I saw a video of us working. He was quite attentive and that tail was always in a happy position.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I think we're saying the same thing. I don't have a "look at me command". It's a byproduct, and it's definitely not a "constant stare". What I'm trying to get to probably looks a lot like what you're describing. I'm wondering if "engagement" is a better word than "focus".

[Adina P]

You may be right. I like the word 'focus' fine...I just don't expect the focus to be completely on me and I'm not quite sure how to explain that.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I've noticed that JD is really more attuned to my body language; he doesn't have to look at me while we're walking, he is very quick to pick up on my pace and my position; the minute I slow my pace, he's seems to understand that we're going to be stopping, even when he is not in a perfect heel position and is walking too far forward. Similarly, shortening the leash gets his attention, or my moving closer or further from his side. He doesn't look at me, but he's very aware of my movements and my position.
It's when I see he's about to enter the reactive 'zone" that it's imperative for me to get his focus on me and only me. Eye contact with other dogs is one of his triggers. Prevent him from looking at what the other dog is doing before he gets into the zone, and the whole thing is diffused before it starts.

[Linda and Murphy]

Yay Jane and Murphy!
For the "growly" noises, I would have gotten his attention or focus.
I know you said your trainer used a choke collar. Mine actually recommended a pinch or prong collar.Stopped class to put one on Murphy because he was behaving so badly and disrupting class. (I know it looks awful but they only get correction if they pull It is supposed to represent the mother's nipping at the puppy's neck as correction.) My Murphy was about 7 months old and 80 lbs. Definitely a lot to handle. It INSTANTLY stopped the pulling. No real effort on my part.
To work on jumping, we also went to our Saturday market to practice "meet and greets".
How much does Murphy weigh now? How tall is he? The leash I use for Murphy most of the time is simply a handle. It is great for crowds (and he is already at my waist. lol)

[Susan and Sasha]

Well...after reading this post...I just joined this group...and..I want to say thank you...this has been Very Helpful...Indeed!!
I have been very hesitant to take Sasha to a place like Pet Smart...because...whenever I go there...dogs are in various stages of "barking...growling...jumping...etc...(smile)
What has helped me so much in "listening in" to your conversation...is that this might be a "good place" to "practice" Sashas "listening/training skills"!!
I particularly liked what Adina said...when she talked about starting the "training lessons" outside of the store...in the parking lot...and when she seems ready...then...move into the store.
Sasha does Not have a problem with Jumping at all...But...she does...does...does...Love people...and REALLY Does Love other Dogs...and wants nothing more than to play with them...and be Very close to them...etc...sometimes following them and trying to be near them...even when they Don't want to have her near them...and she doesn't even realize this...poor SUPER LOVING GIRL!! Lol....
I wouldn't be surprised if she actually went on two hind legs...getting Really TALL...she would be That Happy to see them...Or...just want to love them and touch them...Lol...
So...places like Pet Smart...kind of "make me nervous" (smile)
I will think about taking my girl there...and then let you know how it goes.
Right now...I just started to use a "choke collar...because a "regular" collar just doesn't work.
It seems to be working really well with Sasha.
Any thoughts about "choke collars"??
I've been reading a lot on DK about the "prong" collar...but I'm not sold on it.
Any thoughts?? Maybe that is a question for another Group?? (smile)
Sometimes it gets a little confusing...what questions to ask where...and when...and I hope I'm doing it "RIGHT"?!
Still kind of new...so...still learning...
So ladies...this conversation has been 'helpful to me...and I am thankful to now belong to this group...
Thank you... to Everyone...

[Linda and Murphy]

Murphy is 99 lbs. The prong collar was an instant IN CLASS correction. He was wanting to visit every dog and person in class, could not heel, or anything else we had practiced all week. He was the WORST dog in class.
The instructor stopped class, came over with a prong collar and said put this on him. The correction was instant.
No pulling. no jumping. It is supposed to mimic the mother's correction nips. He quits pulling and the correction ends.

This instructor was against the choke collars because used incorrectly they can injure the dog. (and most people use them incorrectly) The prong collar is an immediate correction. The choke collar depends on you making the correction, It also does not release immediately.

[Adina P]

I think any collar can be used incorrectly. It seems just as easy to teach one as the other, but the prong IS easier to just put on and gain control, with or without much training. The choke collar DOES release immediately if the person makes the correction, vs letting the dog pull on it. If the dog pulls on it...he just gets choked for a bit which, despite the name, defeats the point of the collar.

[F, Calla & Luca]

But with dogs with a lot of doodle hair the choke sometimes does not release easily. I did try one on Luca early on. It was even made specifically for long haired breeds.