Red Meat

[Lee Seidman]

One of the Vets at Lexi's clinic suggested that he did not feed red meat because it causes he believed it caused pancreatitus.
I wanted to see if anyone else was given this advise. In my mind dogs are carnivors, meat eaters.......and always eat red meat. We home cook and provide a diet of some pork, chicken breast, ground beef (mixed in a receipe called satin balls) home cooked liver treats and some fish. Lexi is a 17 month old standard Goldendoodle, weighs 40 lbs.
We have tried every brand of Kibble and she refuses to eat any. I always supplement our home cooking with Origin Kibble, which I believe is currently the best kibble available even tho we usually wind up with her not eating it and spitting the kibble out..
Lexi is a picky eater and might skip a meal or two, but is healthy, active and beautiful ! Please provide your thoughts.

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

I have been feeding beef for about 3 years now. Not only is it a common ingredient in most dog foods but Dr. Pitcairn lists it in his book. Your vet may be referring to using lean cuts and not giving a lot of fat as which is a cause of pancreatitus. That pertains to all sources and not just beef. If you use hamburger, get a lean cut. I use stew beef from Costco all the time. I also use chicken, liver and other meats, alternating often. The main thing you want to do is balance over time, so feed a little of everything to achieve this.

[Tammy & Gracie]

I think pancreatitis is more related to fat, not red meat particularily. All cases I know of have included real fatty meat overconsumption like stolen BBQ pork and other high fat foods. As small as your dog is for a standard she may need a little more fat than some doods.. My vet always recommends a lower fat ground beef/rice diet after stomach upsets. Most of what I read about homecooking (we bagan this a few months ago) is to vary the meats, grains and veggies for nutrition. I think I would keep doing what you are doing.

Want to pass along your recipe for satin balls in the DK cookbook group?

[Lee Seidman]

Tammy Gracie, try this receipe...I tried it myself, tasted yuchy, but Lexi loves it..........

Satin Balls for your Doodle:

1-Large box of Total Ceral crushed (Not Huge)
1-Large Container of Oatmeal (Not Huge)
1- Jar Wheat Germ
1 1/4 cup flaxseed oil
1 1/4 cup Unsulfered Molasses
12 Raw Eggs With Shells (crush shells in food processor or blender)
1/2 container of Knox Gelatin w/ GlucosamineCondroitin

Mix Ingredients in a Large Bowl until smooth then add 10 pounds of lean Hamburger. Mix until consistancy is like a meat loaf. Place approximately 2 cups of the mixture in individual quart size bags and freeze. Should make around 12 bags.

Thaw as needed and cook in a skillet.Place in Tupperware and keep refridgerated.

Do not over feed as Satin Balls will put weight on your Doodle. Supplement meatball size amounts with regular food. Stimulates appetite and very healthy. Can substitute ground turkey for hamburger if you like.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I agree, it's high fat that contributes to pancreatitis, not red meat or any meat per se. I also agree with you that Orijen is the best kibble on the market, even though Lexi obviously prefers homecooking, lol. (And Orijen has a new "Regional Red" formula out, by the way, which is a meat based formula containing a variety of meats including wild boar)
Lean ground beef and rice is a classic treatment for dogs with diarrhea and I fed it to my 15 year old poodle at the end of her life with no problems whatsoever.
I personally believe that the healthiest and best protein source for dogs is fish; but as long as you are mixing up the proteins and using lean meats, I feel very confident in saying you shouldn't worry about Lexi's current diet causing pancreatitis at all...in fact, she probably has one of the healthiest diets of any dog around!

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

Agreed with all responses, so add one more to the fat issue. Support the balanced theory. I would also add what you know, but for newcomers to the nutrition followings, that there are good fats and bad fats just like for people. Some of these fats less is more applies, they have many benefits but a little goes a long way and you are likely in for some major stool changes say if you were to offer the same dosage of flax seed oil as you would salmon oil. Personally I would eliminate pork long before beef unless I knew specifically beef was causing a problem for my dog. On another note I suppose I am a bit pickier with our meats because our dogs do not do well with many grains, for this reason we also do not use satin balls as many breeders do for new moms, the total cereal is way over the top for ours. It is my *opinion* that the chicken industry is likely a lot more scrutinized and thus cleaner (way more than they used to be before bad media) when sticking to the big names you are probably good, for beef though we either use the organics (which costco carries) or try to stick with 'grass fed' beef. I am by no means saying this is how everyone should do so, it has worked for us well and I wanted to share another slant on things. We like lamb, bison and venison even more for red meat choices because they eat grass naturally, but unless some hunter friends are feeling generous and slip us venison we typically use this with commercial raw. Fish is the easiest protein to digest and the mainstay of our own doodle diet, but red meat takes longer to digest ~ making it useful in many diets when sugar levels are monitored closely. More thoughts to be put to the keyboard but work is calling.

[shelly]

Hi Dianne. My aussie doodle seems to also be grain intolerant - I think. She DID have a bout of pancreatitis caused by eating BBQ boneless ribs from the garbage after we - the people- finished our chinese takeout dinner. As a result, I have become very wary about foods and treats we give her... Actually she gets NO "treats" we just give her steamed carrots - once in a while, or just dry kibble....Right now Tori is being fed easily digested canned chicken by Nature's Recipe. She does have a bit of kibble mixed in 2 times a day. She seems to be doing fine! I have heard about the fish protein possibly being better. which I was thinking of trying when I am on vacation in February (this way I will be home to watch for any signs of stomach issues. What brand do you use? Thanks! Happy new year!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Shelly, is this the product you're feeding? Have you looked at the ingredients?
http://naturesrecipe.com/recipe_detail.aspx?id=440
This food does contain grains, including barley and brewer's rice, which is actually a by-product of grain distilleries. It also contains chicken by-products. It's made by Del Monte, which means the ingredients are purchased through food brokers from outside the country, and it has a protein content of only 5%.
I understand you're worried about Tori's digestion because of the pancreatitis incident, but you know the cause of that, and it wasn't a natural thing for her, it was brought on by her getting into the garbage. It wasn't caused by anything in her normal diet. So there's no reason to think she has a food intolerance or that she wouldn't be perfectly fine with a high quality food.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Dianne brings up a good point, which has been confusing for many people in our own diets over the years; all fats are not created equal. It's solid animal fats that are the worst in terms of causing pancreatitis & other health issues. A certain amount of good fats, such as those that supply essential fatty acids, are very beneficial. This includes fish oils.

[Debra Ference-Luongo]

High fat content can definitely be a problem but not beef in and of itself. Edgar had some prime rib on Christmas. He was given a few official bites of some of the more lean portions and than ate quite a bit more unofficially. He ended up with an absolutely terrible case of diarrhea for several days. Luckily he had nothing more seriously wrong but still, it was miserable enough. He's eaten lean ground meat without issue including as part of his regiment to combat regular bouts of diarrhea during puppyhood.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The leanest cut of beef (and incidentally, the healthiest for us, too) is the round. The softer, more tender cuts of beef such as filet & prime rib are also usually the fattiest. Eye of the round, which I often eat myself, has fewer calories and less saturated fat than white meat chicken, ounce for ounce, along with more iron. Fortunately, I happen to like "chewier" meat; it's a sure bet your dog does, too!

[Debra Ference-Luongo]

I don't eat any of it myself so generally rely on the ground beef label to know if it is lean or not (or price for the fatty cuts - LOL.) That is good information about the round. Isn't that what is often used for stew? I'll have to pick some up for Edgar next time I'm at Costco. He loves beef and it would be nice to get a cut that loves him, too.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I think stew meat is usually chuck, but I'm not sure...the store usually just labels it "beef stew meat", lol.
You can buy eye of the round as a roast...it's boneless and looks kind of bullet-shaped; or sometimes you'll see it cut as round medallion-like pieces. It's usually very reasonably priced, relatively speaking. I like being able to cook something for dinner that Jack can share, minus the gravy & seasonings...when I make a roast, I just rinse off a couple of slices for him!