Considering a doodle litter

[Kat]

  I have a beautiful standard poodle bitch that I plan on breeding to another poodle later. I also am watching a gorgeous border collie boy for a few months. My bitch just went into heat and I'm seriously thinking about allowing the 2 to breed. The owner of the boy is interested as she got him to stud. He has a really good pedigree, really healthy lines. His parents were both health tested but he's still a little young for OFA. My poodle is also from clean lines just less impressive. There are show dogs in her lines but she wouldn't do well in the ring as she is a little long for her height. She is light apricot (mom red, dad white) her color varies in shade a little along her body and ears. The boy has a white head with freckles, brown eyes and dark sable on his body. He's long hair and has the most delightful disposition. He's the calmest BC I've ever met that didn't require hours of running to relax. My GSD is more active than him. The poodle is calm also just has a lot of sassy attitude.

 They are both so beautiful with the most delightful temperaments and are so smart that it is tempting. In the near future he will be moving across the country so if I want to breed them it is this heat or never. His owner has agreed to split expenses if we need to. We aren't sure what we should sell them for though. Since a standard of her quality sells for $1500, we were thinking 1/2. The pups should be exceptional. What is the average doodle litter size when mom is a std poodle?

 I've already researched everything I possibly can on pregnancy and whelping and since I'm home all the time that won't be a problem.

[Adina P]

I agree with Jane. While it does sound like you've put some thought into this and are considering two healthy dogs from good backgrounds, the fact that it's essentially an experiment makes me nervous. There are 'responsible' doodle breeders out there who are having a tough time selling health tested pups. So in my opinion, unless you have 12 responsible people (well prepared for either a BC or a poodle like pup) clamoring for pups from this litter it is a big risk to breed them just out of curiosity. I don't blame you for being curious. I often have wondered what my two doodles would have produced ... because I thought the world of them and would often imagine what cute pups they'd have. Thankfully they were both fixed. But now and then I ponder what various breeds would make good mixes and am curious about the possibilities (not with ANY plans to act on my curiosity...just curious). So I can see if I had two fabulous examples of two different breeds it would be interesting and tempting to put them together. But it's just too risky and won't necessarily add much to the world of dogs.

[Dan, Judi, & Timbow]

Adina has created a great guideline to help new members that are looking to add a puppy to their home. She wrote an entire article on what to look for in a breeder. Her points in that article are wonderful and have helped so many on this site find great puppies from great breeders. My challenge to you, as a person that for whatever reason all of a sudden wants to breed dogs, is to read through her guidelines. Do you meet all of the requirements? Would you buy a dog from yourself if you were an outside party? I will go as far as to say that if you don't meet every single requirement then you are not a responsible breeder and you should not breed your dogs and instead go to the vet asap and have them neutered/spayed. http://www.doodlekisses.com/notes/What_To_Look_for_In_a_Breeder

[Dan, Judi, & Timbow]

I do still believe that a border collie and poodle wouldn't be a great cross breed. I also think that for the health of your dogs that they should be spayed and neutered as soon as you can get to your vet.

[Kat]

I have a contract not to spay her with her breeder. She was purchased as a breeding dog with unlimited registration. She is not to be spayed until she is retired from breeding. She must have at least one litter of poodle pups. We are in an area when overpopulation with dogs isn't a huge problem as our shelters are importing puppies from other part of the country weekly just to fulfill the demand and charging in excess of $400 for them. Some remind me of pet stores at the rates they bring very young 8-12 week old pups in. Most of the local towns in the area even big ones don't have a dog pound. Animal control bring stray animals to a local no-kill shelter and pay for them to be boarded for 10 days if they aren't claimed the shelter puts them up for adoption. The closest shelter is very misleading and doesn't take local animals without huge fees, if you can get them to take a stray, they turn it over to animal control and it ends up in the other shelter. I took a cat and kitten from someone that was going to feed them to their dog. That shelter took the kitten and gave it to AC but wanted $200 to take the mom. I left the mom at a friend's place and she got out through a broken screen window (she broke it) and was never seen again. They really should be trying to create better spay/neuter programs where the problems are at its worst. When I lived in NC there really weren't any that would help with the cost. Here there are low cost clinics and vouchers all over, even free spay/neuter programs for feral cats. They need to send some of these programs down there using the money they are making off these puppies they are bringing up. They generally only bring the young and healthy, non-bully breeds and leave the others to hope someone comes along before their time is up. It is almost an industry here that is self supporting by not promoting better spay neuter programs.

As for what happens if not all the pups are adopted, there is the local service dog school too offer some to as my Poodle's breeder has done in the past. They rely mostly on donations from breeders but also get a few from shelters too. In the past I have had people offering to foster some of my training dogs but I was all set at the time. I know a few people who are looking for puppies to train as service dogs for themselves but do not want a pup from unknown origin from the shelter. Many people seeking service dogs to train do not want dogs from shelters with unknown backgrounds or prior experiences. They fail at a much higher rate. I've placed many dogs in the past, not ones I've bred and not all pure but every one of them is still in their home and I have a strict contract stating they are to be returned if the person can't keep them at any point in their lives. I've placed senior dogs as a favor to someone with this same contract despite the fact they were never mine. I was careful to make sure each situation was right for each dog though I had a list of people to choose from with some. Before the people even met them, I had them fill out an application and do an interview over the phone, they meet the dog and if they desire to proceed I take a deposit and call their vet references and sometimes personal. If for some reason they don't check out, the deposit is returned. If everything checks out I schedual a time and bring the dog to them (I have driven over 1.5hours to the right home). I check out the home and if satisfied they complete the contract, pay the rest of the fee and the dog is left with them. They are welcomed to call if there are any issues or they need advice. The dogs were all over 1yr old and were altered, vaccinated, and chipped prior to placement. if they hadn't been altered there would have been a clause in their contract stipulating such.

My question then is if a responsible breeder has to have references then how is it possible that any new breeder of any breed is responsible no matter how many checks they perform, how good of a screening process, and contract they have unless they are born into a family of breeders?

My biggest question to supposively responsible doodle breeders has always been how can you charge $1200-2000 for a doodle when it costs less to get a very good quality purebred with papers? How do you justify that?

[Adina P]

Kat, we're all giving you a hard time because we are quite protective of the doodle reputation and of dogs in general. Many members here are involved in rescue and frankly see a lot of dogs come from mills, byb's and irresponsible breedings. Since you are new here, I think a lot of members natural reaction is "oh no another wanna-be breeder..." The more you've explained the more I can see you have an extensive background in various dog areas and are not planning to go at this ignorantly or blindly but have put some thought into this, have a breeding contract for your poodle, have apparently studied the lines the potential doggy parents come from, etc. So you're not just any 'ol random dog owner who thinks her dogs are cute. You also seem to have plans for what to do with 'extra' pups and are willing to take back any that need new homes. So that's great!

I have mixed feelings about it, however. 20 years ago most of us would probably have said: "Goldendoodles??? Why do something so silly and crazy! Plenty of poodle mix mutts out there...don't be stupid and breed it on purpose like those BYB's!" But today we accept goldendoodles and labradoodles as a worthy breeding mix. Why the bias toward one and against others? I'm not entirely sure. I know that, like others, I tend to cringe when I hear of 'new' mixes and poodle combos. Frankly they just seem fadish and like marketing ploys to sell pups to ignorant buyers...a way to make a fast buck, ignoring the numerous dogs in shelters across the U.S.

Another reason for the bias, I think, is that the GD and LD have passed the time period that fads are usually considered fads. Fads don't last 10+ years...but LD have...so they are definitely more than a passing fad. The LD and GD community also has evolved for the better. Breed organizations have been formed and there are standards expected for health testing, warranties, rehoming, etc. There are LD and GD rescue organizations. So a 'breed' specific community dog enthusiasts exists and thrives for the LD and GD. And I don't see it disappearing.

So although you seem like a responsible person who would go into this with experience in the parent breeds, experience in training, experience in rehoming and forethought on breeding, whelping, puppy care, selection of buyers, etc. I STILL vote for "don't do it" because, in my opinion, there's not really any precedent for borderdoodles set forth (yeah some people are breeding them, but fairly rarely). Yes as with any new breed or hybrid...SOMEONE has to start it. But it doesn't sound like you have any plans to keep going or put work into any long term borderdoodle improvement program. And although this BC sounds like an exceptionally easy family type of dog for a BC...I think it doesn't represent the average BC and sets forth a false notion of what most would be like. On the other hand, most poodles and labs and golden retrievers are generally good family dogs and go together a little better.

In the end, it's up to you. It's not the end of the world if you breed the litter, how does your poodle's breeder feel about you using a BC stud for any litters? Most poodle breeders would have a fit.

As to the price question, it's debated often. My thoughts are that price will be what the market will bear. Since breeding isn't necessarily a philanthropic venture, there's no real need to 'justify' price. What matters to me is that breeding is done responsibly...monetary value is in the eyes of the buyer. If someone is willing to pay $3,000 for a dog of any breed/mix...then that dog is at least that valuable to that person. You or I may not want to pay that much, but who's to say that person should not have?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There is not a top-quality poodle breeder in this country who would sell you a breeding dog with an unlimited registration and allow her to be bred to a border collie. (And yes, I have owned many poodles, including show dogs.) Your story doesn't make any sense. You train "service" dogs, and you're doing independent rescue work but you also purchased a dog with the intention of breeding her? And it doesn't matter with what breed? Nobody who is involved in rescue work would think of doing that. This sounds like another puppy mill dog sold to a BYB on a "breeding" contract. What's the name of your service dog training business?
I'd love to take a look at your "very good quality purebred's" papers. Purebred dogs from puppy mills that are sold in pet stores have "papers" too. "Very good quality" purebred poodles sold with unlimited registration cost many times the amounts you listed.
And once again, the true purpose of your discussion is revealed...the doodle breeders are charging $1200-2000 a puppy, so you'd like to cash in on some of that. No retriever handy, but a border collie will do, I guess.

[Kat]

The owner of the BC has his pedigree but there is a famous sire in his background that I believe was from new zealand. He's working bred and a former farm dog. From what I observed he is the sort of dog that could do well in an apartment with a couple walks and some off leash time. Right now due to weather he gets 1-2 hours of playtime outside in our 3/4 acre fenced yard where he is herded by my shepherd (I really wonder if he knows he's a BC). Then has playtimes a few times per day inside with children and is content. The lady's current BC has very much the same temperament and disposition, she also has the same sire in her background. They are from totally different breeders with other dogs on the pedigrees but the lady knew what she was looking for when she got him.

My poodle doesn't have as impressive of a pedigree. She was raised in the home, not a kennel or cage by a caring breeder that has been breeding for yrs and her mother was breeding poodles before she was. She was not a puppy mill. She has recently retired from breeding and spayed and neutered what was left of her breeding stock as the love of her life has been diagnosed with terminal cancer. She only sold a few out of the litter as breeding and the others went as pets. She may return to breeding after he passes but she doesn't know right now. She's been through a lot lately. When I pick out my pup she had 2 litters of standards. Her mom was due to be spayed after she was back to normal as it was her 3rd litter. She had discussed an interest into possibly breeding some goldendoodles before the diagnosis. Her mom was breeding minis and asked her to raise a litter for her so when I picked up my girl, she had a little of phantom minis which are gorgeous and it is sad the akc doesn't find them to be an acceptable color.

While I think that goldens are beautiful dogs and labs just goofy I have no interest in them. I don't really understand why they were mixed with poodles to begin with other than an attempt to get a lab or golden that doesn't shed. Both breed have similar traits so what were they mixed for other than for cosmetic reasons? Usually you mix a breed because each has different traits that you like, so then if you like what you get you breed more into it with dogs that have the traits you desire, if it doesn't work out you don't continue. Poodles will retrieve and hunt like a golden or lab and are good friendly family dogs but also suited for apartment living provided there is some exercise. Maybe the only difference I see in the breeds is cosmetic and the ability of the poodle to stand or lay on a table for hours and hours and put it with brushing, clipping, banding, and spraying. So no it isn't no retriever handy grab a BC. I'm not fond of either breed and feel no need for what either has to offer. Take the chinook for example a man wanted to create a sled dog with tremendous power, endurance, speed and friendly nature. So he mixed a mastiff dog with a husky. A male puppy from the resulting litter name chinook was bred to a belgian or german shepherd and possibly other husky type dogs. Those pups were then bred back to chinook. He then bred chinook to other faster sled dogs and inter bred those. They are now a breed that is growing in popularity and it now considered a purebred and well on its way to be accepted by the akc. Who would have thought mixing mastiffs, shepherds, and huskies would have been a good idea to create such a intelligent working breed?

So yes their are traits I like in both breeds, not cosmetic. Both breeds have something desirable that the other might not or could use a little toning down. Who knows if the pups turn out really nice maybe I would consider continuing with it but if the mix were a disaster that would be the end of it and make sure it was well documented on these sites that has what they are but no description. There are diseases that affect one breed but not the other even though the poodle doesn't carry and of the genes for a genetic diseases they can test for currently. Poodles and goldens are prone to epilepsy, Degenerative Myelopathy, Von Willebrand's disease, eye lash problems and bloat. Labs have a few similar issues but not as many. Border collie's have little in common as far as genetic disease other than the typical that affect most breeds like HD but if you have parents that are clear of the ones that can be tested through DNA they shouldn't manifest later. One major eye problem in BC is carried with a certain coat color and the cause is recessive but if you breed 2 dogs of the same color you will likely end up with the disease. So avoiding dogs that might carry it would be wise to prevent it. The main problem is the merle and I see lots of merle aussiedoodles so I hope people are being careful with that, there is a site that discusses it lethalwhites.com it can occur in BC if breeders are careless. Right now it might be a bit of an experiment but if they were to turn out exceptional with great temperaments, good intelligence, and eagerness to learn along with making really great family dogs, I would consider breeding more and developing more of the traits I like and eliminating the ones I don't from the gene pool. I'm not just someone who was considering putting 2 breed together and just make money. I have 2 dogs with traits in both I like and a few I don't, who's breeds share few genetic diseases and a few of them are quite rare to begin with. So the incidences of these diseases will be lessened if careful and with the knowledge those that can be detected are not being carried. So yes it could be a complete disaster or the outcome could be great. The thing is identifying if it is a failure and make sure all you have bred are spayed and neutered. I also don't really believe spay/neuter contracts are very solid without taking a deposit which has a certain time limit for refund. I mean what can you do if they don't alter them? not a whole lot.

I will admit I've never hand raised a puppy but I have successfully hand raised orphan rats aand a mouse before their eyes were open which is not an easy feat. Newborns generally will not last long unless a surrogate is found. I've managed to get them to 3 days but they fade and do not thrive it could also be that they are so easy to aspirate no mater how careful you are. Week old ones have a better chance of survival if you know what you are doing but odds are not in your favor yet. When raising an orphan rat, don't expect to get any sleep for the first week. They must be fed every 2 hours and stimulated to eliminate. When their eyes open you can breathe a sigh of relief, they just might make it. You still need to feed often but they quickly start nibbling on solid food. Their eyes open at 2 weeks old. I've attempted to hand raise a few orphans from newborns but as I said tended to fade completely by day 3. There were a few slightly older ones that did make it but they were tiny and undersized. Although they aren't puppies they are much more difficult. I do have friends that have raised baby bunnies, kittens, and puppies by hand that can offer advice. I also have a close family friend that I've known all my life that is a vet tech and can offer help. The vet in an emergency has allowed me to pay what I could at the time and made payments until the rest was paid, my friend also has carecredit for unexpected vet bills. I was going to ask my GSD breeder if she would be willing to help during whelping as she is closer to me in case anything goes wrong, though I have been watching whelping videos and reading as much as I can. I think I already mentioned my parents were breeders yrs and yrs ago and if I recall right had one litter requiring c-section.

I am not going into this blindly like some of you seem to think.

Also someone else mentioned that neads uses labs and goldens, that is not entirely true, labs are the common breed they have used but they have been increasingly using collies, poodles, and they're using some doodles occasionally in addition to various other breeds. The most unusual I've seen was an otterhound. I've even seen a king charles trained by them. If you look at their graduation pictures, yes there are quite a few labs but there are other breeds and I saw more smooth collies than goldens. If you look at their puppy pictures you will see all sorts of breeds that they are training. In the more recent ones there are 2 pups that look like keeshonds but they have shilohs on the description so they might be shiloh shepherd puppies. I also know for a fact they use some shelter dogs.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

that is a dangerous contract and one in bad form. No dog should be banned from being spayed until bred unless it is still owned partially by the breeder and the dog will be required to pass health testing prior to being bred.

What if she fails testing, is she still required to have a litter?

I assume the entire picture is not being painted here.

Low cost spay neuter programs are offered in areas where animal overpopulation is an issue not where it is not. It is also not a program available to breeder to use to ES&N litters.

Service Dog schools do not just take random pups from breeders, they have required protocol breeders must follow in raising the pups for them.

Buyers will want to see where the pups live and the parents expect to have them come to you.

You are right, everyone is new at something that is why having a mentor is important.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

For all those who think a border collie would be a good pet, please read this, from Border Collie Rescue:

A larger proportion of the dogs are given up because they have bitten someone, almost inevitably a child. The herding instinct, if strong, is overwhelmingly incompatible with a household containing children - particularly when the child and adult owners have not been trained or educated in how to deal with the peculiarities of the herding instinct. Border Collies can make good family pets, but only for those dogs that do not have the intense herding instincts and for the families prepared to deal with the ramifications of this behavior.

To a Border Collie, a child is basically a sheep without much wool - a sheep in wolf's (kids) clothing if you will. A child running across the backyard or out the front door is, to the dog, a sheep that has decided to break from the fold. Seeing the child "making a break for it", the Border Collie's natural instinct kicks in and it streaks out in front of the child to cut off its escape. If the child is unprepared for this, the experience of a dog cutting him off and staring or barking at him with seemingly evil intentions, is quite a traumatic event. A normal child's reaction to this is to become frightened, possibly let out a scream, and run further and faster to escape the dog.

Since this child (sheep) is being uncooperative, the dog must escalate his attempts to round up the errant stock by barking and nipping at the heels of the child. A child's normal reaction to this is to become even more frightened, run faster, and scream louder. This cycle escalates until the dog must resort to its last means of control - gripping (biting), normally used to grab an excessively stubborn/brave sheep or cow. The two natural instincts of the child and the dog are entirely incompatible. The child is doing what comes natural to him - reacting in fear to a threat and attempting to flee. And the dog is doing what comes naturally to him - trying to round up an escaping animal by ever-increasing uses of force.

3) By far the largest percentage of dogs are turned in because they are "hyper" and far too difficult to handle. Most people are either not willing, prepared, or able to put in the large time commitment it takes to adequately exercise a Border Collie. Border Collies have been bred to herd sheep and that requires a lot of physical stamina and endurance. Herding sheep is an all-day activity and often entails miles of endless running and sprinting across uneven patches of farmland. Obviously, not everyone has the luxury (or burden) of owning sheep, so another outlet must be found for this energy.

Can't I train the dog not to herd the children?
No. The instinct, if present, is exactly that - an instinct. It is neither trained nor learned. The behavior can be modified or channeled into other activities (which is why Border Collies make such wonderful Frisbee dogs) or can be redirected somewhat through training, but the instinct will always be there. No amount of training, no matter how skilled the trainer is, can get rid of a Border Collie's instinct to herd. A Border Collie in the herding "mode" is a dog that misses, forgets, or simply ignores all commands and no amount of pleading from the owner will work. Countless Border Collies are killed by cars every year because the dogs, when the instinct kicks in, are oblivious to almost all other external stimuli.

If Border Collies are so smart, then why aren't they easy to train?

If you are not a precise sort of trainer (most people aren't), then trying to train an intelligent Border Collie can be a frustrating task. Yes, they can pick up commands on two or three tries but they are also very perceptive and are constantly thinking. If, in teaching your dog to sit, you raise your right hand and say "Sit", the dog may pick that up the first time through. However, if the next time you repeat the command, you raise your arm at a different angle and use a slightly lower tone of voice or a different pace, a Border Collie will often pick up the subtle distinction and think that you are using an entirely new command. Border Collies have a difficult time learning to generalize, basically because it takes a dog that is less "critical" to be able to follow a sloppy command. Training a Border Collie can be like trying to teach a nerdy child that likes to overanalyze everything - it can be frustrating and an exhaustive exercise in patience.


To read more:
http://www.bcrescue.org/bcwarning.html

[Kat]

The contract is whenever I have selected and bred a poodle litter, her breeder is owed a puppy which is our agreement. I bought her with the intentions of me breeding her and there was no requirement of who to breed her to though she said she might make suggestions but it would be entirely up to me. It was suggested by others to have her add in that she would select the stud and cover the stud fee but I didn't want to be stuck with such an arrangement. What if I didn't like the stud she chose and be forced to breed with him? So the agreement was I can breed her when and to whatever sire I chose but I must give her the puppy of her choice from a poodle litter. who knows she might not even decide to breed the pup or give it to her mother, who knows only time will tell. So I plan on waiting until she's doing a little better to plan my poodle litter.

My friend and I have already been working on the what ifs and how we will split things. That expenses will be covered first then how the rest would be split if there is any left, with me getting a bigger share for doing all the work. Also who is responsible for which expense. I also have a boarding contract with her regarding her boy while he's here. Having a dog with ED (the shepherd) has helped me understand what the expenses will be like for things like x-rays. I made a commitment when I got her and won't back out even when faced with this and the possibility of having to put her down long before she is old and gray. I'm going to do my damnedest to make sure it doesn't happen even if it isn't something her breeder would do. I have brought her into the vet 3 month in a row for routine exam, pain eval, and next is a blood test to check her liver and kidneys because she's on medication and discuss what the next step will be, and hopefully an estimate. She needs blood tests every 6 months and is on daily medication. Her problem is something that shouldn't even be my responsibility and I could easily get out of it by returning her to her breeder but I'm not going to. Believe me I know that dogs can be a big money pit and you never really make much money breeding. You put just as much money into the dogs as you get from breeding and generally put in more. There are rewards in owning a dog.

I have bred rats and there was absolutely no money in it whatsoever no matter how fancy variety of rat it was. I bred most of the varieties and patterns including hairless (only a couple litters at the moms turnout not to be the best of mothers), rex, dumbo rex, double rex, double dumbo rex, standards in every color, and dumbos. You can end up with standard rex and double rex and dumbos of that coat in the same litter if you breed a carrier to a dumbo. They were too short lived for me and I stopped breeding though I love all types of dumbo rats.

[Mustard Seed Ranch]

I think regardless of the cross you plan to do the first thing you should do is have both parents health tested. He is NOT too young to get tested. OFA does preliminary testing so if both are old enough to be bred then they are old enough to be tested. Once they have BOTH passed their testing then you can think about doing a cross. As the owner of a shepherd with ED, I am sure you do not want to produce puppies with the health problems.

[April Cliber]

I agree with Wendi (Mustard Seed) Health test first; at the very least, hips, elbows and CERF. If they pass testing and you want to breed them still, get a website up and have at least $2,000 set aside for the cost of raising the litter. You should also contact some breeders that are already producing tested BC/poodle mixes and see if one will mentor you. You'll want to have someone to ask questions of who is familiar with the mix.

BTW, to answer your question about the size of the litter.... I'd say 6-12 pups is average.