Lincoln Didn't pass his class...

[Diane Denney]

Well I'm bummed, but not surprized. Lincoln didn't pass the intermediate class for the second time. He was so distracted. There is only one other dog (a pittbull) in the class, and he passed the class before I got there. I didn't think that was very fair as he had no distractions like mine did. Anyhow I haven't worked hard enough with him at home so I wasn't surprized. I had a funeral to go to last week, and my Dad has end stage cancer so honestly I haven't been putting in my all...sigh

Also Lincoln is still being so bad at home. I can not stop him from jumping on my older dog Scott ALL OF THE TIME. He never just hangs!!! He is being so bad. I thought when he turned one that we would make inroads on some of these challenges. He ran three miles today, and was at training and socialized for three hours yesterday you'd think he would be tuckered out a bit. He still goes for our hands too, but it's mostly avoidance behavior because I keep having to put him back in the kitchen. When will he learn that the better he behaves the longer he'll be able to stay outside the kitchen. I hate leaving him in there. I'm starting to worry!!!!

[Adina P]

Diane, obviously your father's life and health are of utmost importance. So it is totally understandable that you've been pre-occupied. I would have been too and training my dog would also have been lower on the list. But I'm going to answer as though that wasn't an issue (I KNOW it is and I know that you may not be able to do all the things advised of you right now. Save them for later).

When training doesn't get results these are the possibilities that come to mind.
1) Lack of practice--just not putting in enough time.
2) Poor practice/Handling error--maybe you're putting in plenty of time but not doing it quite right or missing something.
3) Haven't made effective use of distractions--maybe you practice enough and even have good technique, but it's ALWAYS in your house so Lincoln hasn't generalized the behavior to other places and around other distractions.
4) An ineffective training method (maybe Lincoln needs another method more effective for him and you?)

If you're doing fine on #1-3...then it might be time for a different method. If you're not doing okay with #1-3 then you'll have to pinpoint where things are lacking and work on that. In order to be sure you pass next time you'll need to go beyond what's required in practice. Remember these three D's: Distance, Distraction, Duration.

Distance: Work toward a greater distance (wherever this applies) in practice than required for the test.
Distraction: Work around at least as difficult distractions as you can imagine might occur in class...but work up to them gradually...only go to a higher distraction when Lincoln can tolerate current distractions.
Duration: If he has to do a 3 min down stay...work toward a 5 minute down stay. Try sit stays on carpet, sit stays on slicker floors, sit stays on comfy dog bed (where he'll be tempted to lie down). You have to think like a detective for a bit. You can't increase all three D's for instance. Why? Well if he's never had to do a sit stay on his dog bed then you can't expect him to do a long sit stay...just a short one. When you add a distraction, you make it easier in other ways...then slowly increase the time. Work him while you're cooking, ironing, folding laundry. Keep him on a leash and work him for 5 minutes then put him back in his crate.

In fact perhaps if the FIRST thing he had to when coming out of his crate is sit stay...he might look forward to sit stays =) Crate immediately before and after an obedience lesson (but give him a chance to potty between).

[Diane Denney]

Just so you know Lincoln and Scottie are fine together if they are chewing a bone. They just lay beside each other and all is well and calm, but when the bones finished look out. I use the leave it command with some success, but he is really bold and pushes it to the limit. What I have been doing is everytime he goes to jump on or mount Scottie I will calmly take him and put him back in the kitchen for a minute than release him again. There are times when he just minds his own business, but they're short lived so I know there is hope!!! Maybe I'm just asking too much of a young dog. I know things will change when he gets older, but that's a long time from now.

BTW I have tried to let Scottie put Lincoln in his place, and he will put him to the ground, but Lincoln never gives up, and I have yet to see Scottie give him a stern enough warning, and I've let them go at it for a long time. I do believe Scottie enjoys playing with him to some degree, and even instigates some of the problems, but as I mentioned earlier he never stops, and my furniture goes flying, and they always seem to fight right in front of one of us, and I believe Scottie is defending his territory which is us!!! They will sit beside each other when I have a treat in my hand, and pay attention to me, but there have been times when even a treat wouldn't stop Lincoln. Anyhow hopefully tonight will be a better night!!!

[Natasha]

Thanks for the past posts Adina, that really helped.

Diane, how old was Lincoln when you brought him home and/or was taken away from the litter? It sounds like he might have been removed early (pre 8 weeks) and didn't really learn from other dogs how and when to play.

Ok, I watched the video and here are my personal (and I stress personal) opinions:

1) They are rough housing not fighting which is why your previous behaviorist and the doggie day care people aren't concerned. However, it totally makes sense that you want to make sure Scott doesn't get hurt.

2) This isn't so much about playing or fighting as it is about establishing who is going to be the Alpha dog. In your good natured desire to keep peace in your family, you have not let them work this out on their own. For months, Lincoln has attempted to assert himself and your response is to break up the brawl and go even further by removing him from the pack entirely.

3) In a large number of posts, you repeat that you want Lincoln to be THE BEST. I wonder if it would help you to relax on this a bit. Don't worry about him passing his training course. Don't expect him to be perfect. Do try to work on one thing at a time and pick the most important thing to getting your home stable.

So, forget about him being able to leave the cookie on the ground for 1 minute or 2 minutes. What good is that doing for you right now? Instead, go back to your foundation and spend two weeks working on one thing and pick something that you know he will be successful given the attention. For instance, if you recognize that he goes crazy when he is first allowed access to Scott which just gets both dogs too worked up (for instance when you let him out of the kitchen), try to find a way to get him to calmly leave the gate. Maybe something like:

---With Scott nowhere to be seen, open the gate and ask Lincoln to wait (which you have said he's good at) and treat him. Direct him to then go get on his bed and lay down. Treat him. Give him a really desirous bone or like one of those dental chewies and bring Scott in the room. Keep them together in the room for just a minute or two and maybe think of a trigger word like "calm" that you can say that might come in handy another day. Put Lincoln back in the kitchen and let him finish his bone/chewie and remove Scott from the room. Success! Quiet time and big rewards. Repeat several times that day as training (so, good to do on a Saturday and don't let him finish the whole chewie each time or he'll get sick) but also do it when you are going to let the dogs out for family time.

OK, on to the nuts and bolts of the rough housing...

Lincoln appears (by how you describe his other issues) to be an Alpha dog and a high energy one at that. It also sounds like Scott is a bit of an Alpha as well when it comes to certain territory, but he is otherwise less inclined (more submissive). Unfortunately, we don't get to decide who wins in this one - they have to and the only way they can is by repeatedly asserting themselves against each other until one gives up.

I suspect the other issues that you are having (him nipping at your hand, etc.) can also be related to the fact that he hasn't settled out his pack order. Read one or more of Stanley Coren's books - he talks about these kinds of issues. Pack order is critical to a dog's overall peace of mind and having an undecided/uncertain situation can make the entire pack more than unsettled. It can result in obsessive behavior from all dogs invovled like marking, humping, and chewing.

Rather than become overly frustrated and experience increasing grief between you and your husband, I would sit down together an discuss some of these options:

a) Have a behaviorist (another one as it sounds like the original one you found didn't mesh well with you) come to the house and observe and offer an opinion and (hopefully) some tactics. Specifically state that you are wanting to focus solely on the dogs rough housing; and/or

b) Go around the house and pick up everything that you think might be dangerous to the dogs and that you don't want broken. Put all of it away in a closet somewhere for a bit. Let the dogs have free reign throughout the house when you are home and do not break up any scraps or intercede in any way unless you see something that you think will lead to an injury. Now, that doesn't mean fatigue. It sounds like Lincoln will be the final Alpha between the two dogs, but Scott will fight that until he has been convinced otherwise and that may take a lot. You and your husband should agree on how long you are willing to give this tactic, but be patient as one night or even a week may not do it. Oh, and you might want to give your kitties a quiet room to themselves during this period. Scott needs to learn how to express "ENOUGH." You may also need to set up a quiet place where Scott can retreat to rest up. This will leave Lincoln in the family area with you which is, honestly, what happens with the Alpha dog. By removing Lincoln from the family area, you may be disrupting the natural way that these things get sorted out which just makes Lincoln more frustrated. It may actually be Scott who needs to go somewhere else for a bit. I don't know - ask the behaviorist, though.

c) If you think that Scott is going to be injured before this all gets worked out or that Lincoln is just too much for Scott to handle, then I really do recommend having a behaviorist come over and help you assess the situation. If he/she agrees that this isn't going to get better, then consider rehoming Lincoln. He sounds like a really great dog who just has not been able to settle in to your family. It sounds like you are having to isolate Lincoln quite a bit which is not a natural thing for a dog - they are used to being together (hence the reason that we typically call them shadows).

It actually does sound like you are considerate toward his exercise and training needs, but the two dogs just haven't had a chance to work out who is going to be top dog (not most loved dog). There are probably plenty of other ways that you and your husband can brainstorm to give these dogs the space that they need to work through this issue. Also, as others have said, this may greatly improve with age.

[Diane Denney]

Thanks Natasha. I have let them go at it, and did not intercede quite a few times, but maybe I didn't let it go on long enough? How long is long enough? It sounds like it has to happen for at least a couple of weeks for there to be an established Alpha without him being in the kitchen. Scottie does retreat on his own BTW. I don't know if I mentioned that, but Lincoln does chase him during this retreat sometimes. He retreats to the upstairs. If Lincoln follows the fight continues up there. Should I be alarmed by Scotties yelps as Lincoln bites him? he doesn't draw blood but definitely does bite hard.

I'm confused about this as I thought we were suppose to be the pack leaders. I have had conflicting advice on this. The behaviorist told me to keep them apart until he learns proper behavior as it was unfair to Scott.

[HANNAH 8/2/07 & HONEY 7/2/08]

There is a pack order which does include your family as head of the pack and than dogs....which you seem to need to find a way to deal with in two separate ways. The mouthing, jumping those are the pack issues with family, issues of bulling, continuous play, biting and humping Scottie and basically being the younger bratty brother is the pack issues with Lincoln and Scottie that make up your family pack. Have you tried to tether him to you? When he starts with his mouthing carry a spray bottle of water mixed with Vinegar. When he goes to mouth you, spray him in the face. Worst thing is he will smell like a French Fry but should stop him, or 2nd option as soon as you feel his mouth near your hand going to bite, grab him by the scruff of his neck and shake him, telling him "NO BITE, NO MOUTHING" 3rd option (least favorite) is to stop him with shaking a can or bottle 1/4 of the way filled with either coins, stones. When Lincoln is doing what you don't want him to do, shake it at him and give the proper verbal correction. If he is tethered to you, you can get to him quicker and give the correction, which in some ways it sounds he needs to be corrected sooner. When he goes to jump on you, bring up your knee, he will jump into your knee and stop, 2nd option you can also try the "Ignore" as soon as he jumps turn away from him and "NO" attention at all not even the off command, if he turns again and goes to jump, you keep turning till he gets the idea - "he gets No attention till he stops jumping" it may take 20 times doing this till he gets it, but with all training you need to be consistent and don't give up. 3rd option is having him on a leash and prong collar, when he goes to jump up, give him a quick pop to sit or down with the command. If you want him to sit pop straight up, down...straight down. Also as soon as you get the response you want be sure to "Reward" him with lots of praise and a treat, so he knows he did good. There are lots of training tips you can try....Pick one way to work with Lincoln at a time and for a few weeks to see if you get any response from one method, never use more than one method together because you will confuse Lincoln.

[Diane Denney]

Thanks!! I was thinking that the pinch collar might not be a bad idea for Lincoln as he needs something to get his attention, and he's 72 pounds now so he is way beyond me being able to shake him. I'm only 5'3" and weigh 120 pounds although I have rattled him a couple of times. He is really a loving sweet dog, and I hate making him sound like this. I will make sure to post the positive things too!!!

[Lynda Kamrath]

I have resorted to using a pinch collar on my younger doodle when we are going on a walk. I just give a yank and say no (to whatever he is thinking of doing) and he immediately sits down. Then we start off again. My other dog is free and obeys commands, but I had several bad experiences with the younger dog (almost four years old). He is too large for me and needs the control when we are away from home. It seems to be working well. I put the cinch collar on when we leave the car and take it off as soon as we get back into the car, so he sees it as the signal that we are going for a walk. No complaints so far and he does seem to be obeying better. I do love to have them off leash, but I can't handle the consequences.

[HANNAH 8/2/07 & HONEY 7/2/08]

Just hope some of these suggestions really help you. We all know Lincoln is a very loving sweet dog, just has his moments like most of our dogs, including my Honey. But most of all always remember dogs learn at different pace's, and don't forget to "Praise" every good behavior you get. Please do post the good and not so good things, they help us all.

[Natasha]

Well, maybe there's an argument to be had that, as the "pack leader" (I'm starting to feel silly using that term, but whatever), if at the point where you see one dog retreat, you can take down the other one. Have you tried that take down move where you put the dog on his side with your hand like a claw on his neck?

It doesn't sound like he's responding to being removed from the situation.

Yelps are a good way for a dog to communicate to another dog that there is a problem. The problem appears to be that Lincoln never learned how to read other dogs' signs. Meaning, like his mother and other litter mates weren't there during the critical development time to yelp and then shun (littermates) when he gets out of control and to growl and then put him down when mom realizes he's pushing it too far. Do you know his history pre-8 weeks old?

We reserve the "take down" for extreme situations (when Rouser runs down the street, ignoring come commands and puts himself in harms way of cars for instance), but this sure does seem like an extreme situation.

BTW - it really sounds like you're doing a great job. I think that if you pick one thing and are consistent with that one thing, you'll start to see improvement. He sounds like a smart dog and it also sounds like he wants to please you, he just doesn't seem to have a lot of impulse control. :) Maybe a separate behaviorist can really look at what's going on and help you long term?

[Eva]

Diane,
The people that have been replying to your situation have wonderful ideas. In time it will get better, it really will. But it sure doesn't seem like it now though. Brucegirl had great idea's with the little tests throughout your day. The doggy day cares are an excellent energy burner. Before we tested our dogs in the stores or any situation, bring them to the park and run the daylights out of them, hydrate and rest and go to the store a good half hour early to aclimate them to the situation.... the pup's for adoption, the smells, the whole area again. I know the goal is technically not to pass, and to have a well trained dog, but.... that certificate is a source of pride.
I'm sorry about your dad. Savor all the special times you can with him and enlist family help. It's tough to take time for yourself, but it's important. I hope things get better. Eva, Willow & Mali

[Diane Denney]

Thanks Eva. I love Lincoln, and would not ever be able to re-home him no matter what so these dogs will have to get along somehow!!! LOL Maybe if I calm down in my mind more he will sense it too!!! There is a lot of stress in the house right now. Unfortunately my Dad is 2000 miles away out West which makes it that much harder for me, but I was able to talk to him on the phone for a little bit on the weekend so that was good. He can't talk very well anymore as he is extremely sedated on pain meds, but it made my day!!!

[Diane Denney]

Well I tried a different stradegy last night with Lincoln. As usual they were fine eating their bone together, and then Lincoln started the usual mounting, wrestling etc... so I had treats in my hand and told him to leave it, and each time he left him I treated him and told him good boy. Of course he went back and started mounting him again, and once again I said leave it which he didn't do automatically every time, but once he did I treated him and said good boy. I let them rough house for a while but Scott really was running away and this time yelped pretty good, and noticed Lincoln has blood on his fur near his cheek. Not sure from where. So I let Scott run away and postured Lincoln, and then put Lincoln back in the kitchen. I don't know if this will work. This morning I let him out of the kitchen to chew his bone with Scott as usual (he always likes to lie close to Scott), but of course tries to steal the bone as well at times. I put a leash on him this time so it would be easy for me to re-direct his attention, and sure enough he started mounting Scott as per usual. Scott didn't leave, but tries to back up, and sometimes doesn't seem to move at all so I took told him to leave it, and he did and I gave him a treat. I also then tethered him to the table, and he wasn't able to reach Scott, but was able to be in the room with us. I had the treats in my pocket the whole time. When I went to another part of the house I brought Lincoln with me by leash and tethered him or held him where I was and told him to sit and gave him a treat. I had to get ready for work so I put him back in the kitchen. I wanted to take him to daycare, but I ran out of flea med, and need to buy some more, and don't want him there without it. They are not very overdue, but I don't want to take a chance.