Weaning puppy off homecooking...with no luck.

[Christine and Daisy]

Hi All:

 

It's been over a week since we took Daisy to the animal hospital after repeated episodes of vomiting and diarrhea. She was fine, not dehydrated, and probably had a blockage from her first (& last ever) bully stick. They reccommended that we start her off on something fresh like homecooking since she had constant loose stools from the other dry food she was eating. She'd eaten Nutro-Source (which I refuse to give her now) and California Natural chicken and rice.

 

I cooked up some brown rice and chicken, with a small amount of white rice. She was also taking a daily dose of 1 tbsp of organic pumpkin and a Nu-Vet supplement. I added peas for her and started off with 1 tbsp of Canidae dry. I was hoping she'd be back on the dry completely by this weekend, but she's not. After 3-4 days of well-formed poops, we upped the dry to 2 tbsp to add to the mix. She immediately started having a much softer, looser stool. So we went back to 1 tbsp, and now she's up to 1.5 tbsp. We don't have dry food out for her during the day, so I'm worried that she's not getting enough nutrition and I'm not sure what to do about it. We don't want to give her a bowl of Canidae if she's just going to have diarrhea. We upped her amount of homecooking from 130grams to more than 200grams each serving - 3 times per day.

 

She's always been a rambunctious little girl at nearly 5 months. Always running and jumping everywhere. Today she is totally mellow. Like a completely different dog. She's been sleeping all morning, but she seems ok, just really tired. Hubby is passing it off to a long walk in the AM. Yesterday she had a busy day at the dog park and later a nature walk where she had her first taste of playing in water.  I am concerned about her, but don't want to take her to hospital again if I don't have too. It's a holiday today in Canada, so not much is open anyhow. I don't believe she's just matured all of a sudden, I think she's way too young to be acting this way.

 

I've gone through The Food Group group and Homecooking, but there isn't much for homecooking for puppies recovering from being ill. I can start to add more veggies, plain yogurt and craisins slowly, but I want to  make sure I'm doing the right thing for her.

 

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...thanks!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

For puppies recovering from illness, you really need to stick with a very simple formula; the plain chicken & rice with the little bit of pumpkin you described is just about perfect. Forget about the craisins, etc. until she is older and you go to homecooking exclusively.
However, as we discussed previously, Daisy is too young to be on homecooking alone. The vitamins are fine, but she really needs a good premium food until her skeletal growth is complete. For mini & medium doodles, that's usually between 6-8 months. For standards, it's usually between 10-12 months.
Trust me, Daisy is not calmer because she's matured. She has a long long time before she becomes truly calm & mellow on a day-to-day basis...as much as 2-3 years. A lot of exercise can tire a puppy out, though.
Stay with the plain chicken & rice again until the poops are normal. I'm wondering why you started with the Canidae instead of just going with the Calif. Natural, which is much easier on any dog's stomach. And which formula Canidae did you get? There are many different ones, some better than others. If there are a lot of new ingredients or protein sources she hasn't had befoe, that might account for some of the problems with her poop. Or it may just not be the right food for her. But let's get her digestion settled & her energy back up before we start discussing kibble options. I love your enthusiasm, but let's take one thing at a time, lol. That's a good rule of thumb for feeding dogs, too. They really can't handle too many changes at once, especially at such a young age.
If she were my pup, I'd start adding the C.N. back in slowly until she's basically only getting the dry food with maybe a spoonful of homecooked food added to help keep her interested. Make sure she is drinking water, too.
Does someone come home at lunchtime to let Daisy out and feed her? You mentioned that she doesn't have food out "during the day", but I am assuming you don't mean a whole day, i.e. 8 hours or more.
Hope this helps!

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

I think you will do much better with just kibble for now, just as Karen said. i still don't add a lot to Peri's food because she loves her kibble and we have never had any stomach issues from her. Sometimes I add some green beans or cooked carrots (no salt added for either), but all in all, she is a kibble girl. She is a 14 month mini.

[Christine and Daisy]

Hi Karen:

Thanks for your input. I would love to be giving her kibble and not homecooking at all, but as I mentioned in my post, when I had her on California Natural, she was sensitive to it. She vomited the first time I gave her a taste of the sample bag - I think she was starving after not liking the Nutro-Source all week before the C.N. The Canidae was recommended to us. The formula we have is the chicken meal and rice for all life stages. I didn't see a huge variety of formulas of that brand at the pet store.

The problem is that every time I add a little more dry kibble, she gets softer bm's and I am really liking the firmer poops that she gets from the homecooking. It's like her tummy can't handle the dry, but she was sensitive to the CN and she doesn't like the Nutro Source. I don't know what to do next to wean her off!

She was recovering from a blockage of bully stick which isn't really an 'illness' so to speak, so she should be able to handle more in her diet one would think.
Since she's been fine all week on the homecooking and tiny bit of dry, I was looking for ideas on how to go about getting her off the homecooking but I don't know what else to try. I am concerned with her not being on a good premium dry, but they don't seem to agree with her!

My husband has been coming home on his lunch break to feed her and take her out for a 30+ min walk everyday. When I mean she doesn't have food all day, I should have been more clear, lol. She doesn't have kibble to nibble on anytime she wants outside of her three meals per day!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I don't think the vomiting the first time Daisy ate the C.N. necessarily means she is sensitive to it. She may have eaten too rapidly, swallowed too much air, who knows? I would not give up on the food that quickly.
Let me do a check on the ingredients in that particular formula of Canidae. They do have a grain free line that I prefer, but if it isn't available in your area, it isn't. Store recommendations are okay, but not always the best way to choose a food. I think Daisy may do better on a grain free food such as Orijen.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I'm not clear on whether or not she's actually having diarrhea or just soft stools. If it's just soft stools, you may have to put up with that until the puppy is old enough to move to home cooking. We had to go through a few months of that with Guinness. I would continue with the chicken and rice along with the pumpkin, and very gradually increase the kibble. I would definitely use a grain free puppy food. Guinness did the best with that, although as I mentioned his stools were very soft until I was able to take him off all kibble. Again, diarrhea is a different story.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Okay, I just compared the California Naturals Chicken & Rice puppy formula to the Canidae Chicken & Rice ALS formula, and nutritionally, they are very similar. The C.N. has fewer ingredients, and every single thing that's in the C.N. is also in the Canidae. So theoretically, if Daisy is sensitive to the C.N. food, she would be sensitive to the Canidae food, too. In fact, the C.N. should be less likely to cause a digestive upset due to the limited ingredients.
You might try a canned food; that might work better if she has a sensitive digestive system. But I personally would give the C.N another try, or switch to a grain-free like Orijen puppy formula.
Keep in mind that until a dog's digestive system matures and becomes accustomed to a variety of foods, you are always going to have some digestive changes, usually soft stools, for a few days when making dietary changes. If she is eating the same food for at least 7-10 days exclusively, and still has very soft runny stools, it's a different story.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Christine, here's a link to the Canidae website which shows the grain-free formulas. You might ask your store owners to order this for you if they carry Canidae but not this particular formula:
http://www.canidae.com/dogs/grain-free-als/dry.html

[Christine and Daisy]

Thanks for the link Karen. It doesn't make sense why she would be sensitive to CN and not Canidae if they have the same ingredients. Instead of switching back to CN, I think I'll try the grain-free Canidae and see how she does. If it's not available in Canada, I can cross into Washington and check there.

I went to the pet store to buy the Orijen puppy, but they let me know the protein levels are really high, and not the best for puppies. I had read that on here as well, but decided to try it anyhow as it seems to be one of the highest quality foods out there, and I know it's available here.

Her previous bm's were very soft, no shape whatsoever and at times drippy. That was last week before the homecooking. Now they are perfectly formed. I don't mind them slightly softer, but the drippiness was a little bit unnerving!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

It's a myth that the protein levels in Orijen are too high for puppies. Or I should say, it's an older school of thought that has been disproven for the majority of dogs.

[Christine and Daisy]

Really??? I'm interested in hearing more about that because the amount of listed protein on the front of the bag was apparently too high for the behaviourist. Did they change their formula? How did the whole rumour get started I wonder?

Definitely interesting to hear that's for sure.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This link should answer all your questions:
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth

Pay particular attention to the part of the article that explains crude protein versus available or usable protein. The dog food recalls of 2007 illustrated all too well that under chemical analysis, even plastic (melamine) can look like protein, due to its nitrogen content. However, it won't be absorbed or utilized as protein.
One problem is assuming that dogs' nutritonal needs are similar to those of humans. Believe it or not, there are also still people who believe that eating meat contributes to aggression.
Unless your behaviorist has a degree in veterinary nutrition, which is an advanced degree obtained through three years of post-graduate study after getting one's DVM, I would not take nutritional advice from him/her. Nor from the sales clerks in the pet supply store, unless they have the same credentials. I do not have these credentials, either...so I follow the advice of those who do, and only those who do.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Even my home cooking books do state the benefits of protein. Both puppies and seniors require more protein than younger adult dogs. Newer studies have proved that high protein diets do not cause orthopedic problems in puppies, nor do they lead to kidney disease in older dogs. With the exception of a very few specific health problems, feeding a diet that is high in protein offers benefits. I feed Orijen puppy to my 5 month old puppy, and I'm very comfortable with the protein levels. I would give it a try, again introducing it slowly as you begin to phase out the home cooking (for now). I would hope you could get to a point where you'd have stools that are at least formed (although soft).