Orijen 6 Fish and Loose Stools

[Nick Pietras]

Hi Everyone,

 

Many of you have helped me before as I've struggled through my Gus' food issues!

 

Gus is 10 months old, and after Innova puppy seemed to disagree with him, we started him on CN. That worked great for about 2 months and then wham...loose stools and diarreaha. We've had him tested several times, he's done two rounds of metronidazole, etc. We've had him on chicken and rice and then started him back on CN, and instant loose stool. A week ago, I decided to try a grain free food, and we'd heard great things about Orijen 6 Fish. It was an instant 180 - he had the best stools of his short little life thus far! On the 6th day of being on the food (as well as an easy digest probiotic to help ease the transition) some loose stools started again. And they've been kind of back and forth for the past few days. Not as loose as before when he was on CN, but certainly a difference from when he first started on the food. When we started him on the Orijen, we cut out all grain foods, and I got him EVO Taste of the Wild red meat formula treats, which I started giving him a few days in. I'm going to stop giving him those to see if maybe that's what is causing the loose stools (too much protein, perhaps..and maybe not good to give him two different kinds of protein?)

 

I also know that he just may still be adjusting, but just wondered if the fact that he was instantly having great stools and then not so great stools is a sign that the food does not agree with him...he LOVES the food though...he eagerly eats it, when usually he would require some type of enticing topper on just kibble. I'm also giving him the lesser amount of the recommended daily feeding (about 1 and 1/2 cups per day...the recommended amount for his weight is 1 1/4 - 2 3/4 cups per day) so I don't think its a case of overfeeding. His energy is normal, I feel like his coat is more vibrant than usual as well.

 

I don't want to give up on this food quite yet - just wondering if anyone can offer any advice or perhaps has a similar story?

[Christine and Daisy]

Thank you Karen. I get confused with all the advice I am being given and I am finding out now what works and what doesn't. She had cooked carrots with her dinner tonight. Cooked peas do not agree with her and are coming out like a bullet train. Green beans she refuses to eat. I was told a cold raw carrot is a nice snack and soothing to her teething gums.

Thanks for sorting that out, I appreciate it.

I worry that she is getting too much fiber with the pumpkin and brown rice. Should I mix white basmati in with the brown? She really needs more veggies in her diet.

[Nick Pietras]

I highly recommend trying a grain-free food first. With Gus, it was the only thing that all the foods that didn't work for him had in common. If Daisy has the same issue, I think you'll see a very quick improvement! Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Also, regarding the time it takes to digest food, and what is being expelled when, lol, it takes 8-10 hours for the food to be completely digested. However, eating anything stimulates the digestive system and moves along whatever is in the bowel at the time. Food that doesn't agree with them can cause the food from an earlier meal to exit the digestive system too quickly, before the water has had a chance to be absorbed by the large intestine, so the stool doesn't have a chance to form. Hence, diarrhea. So what is coming out is food from a meal several hours ago, but what caused the diarrhea is food that was eaten more recently.

[Christine and Daisy]

Hi Karen:

I bought the Orijen grain-free for puppies today. I wasn't sure how much to give her at dinner as she only can handle 2 tbsp's of Canidae kibble with her homecooked at each meal. I decided to just let her try some kibble 5 mins before her dinner. Well, she wouldn't eat it! I think the kibble is too tough for her, maybe she's lost too many baby teeth. I put about 1 tsp in a bowl with some hot water and allowed it to soak. Then she ate it, so I didn't give her any more of the Orijen with her dinner. How much would you recommend I add in tomorrow with her meals? Would 1 tbsp be too much with 1 tbsp of Canidae? I will also need to soften it with water first. Have you heard of that before?

She's not liking cooked carrots at all, they came out undigested. So that's peas, beans and carrots that she cannot tolerate. I am not sure what other vegetable to put in with her two other meals during the day when she's not getting the organic pumpkin at dinnertime. This is getting complicated. I could move onto potatoes, but are they easy to tolerate?

Any suggestions would be helpful, I do appreciate your wealth of knowledge on this topic!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Murphy is also teething right now, and he has trouble with the Orijen if it isn't softened. Murphy is 37 pounds and five months old and he gets a cup of Orijen in the morning and another at night with two tbsp of table food (usually chicken, rice, and a little vegetable) mixed in. I add some water to the home cooking which forms a broth, and that's what I use to soften the kibble. I will sometimes use a little diluted low sodium chicken broth. I find the key with the veggies (and again I give very little) is that they are chopped into very, very tiny pieces and are cooked very soft. Usually I can actually mash them. When the veggies are prepared this way they can't actually "pick them out". They become part of the meal itself, and they don't pass through undigested.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I saw this after I posted below. Jane's advice is perfect. I would follow her instructions exactly, adjusting the Orijen for differences in age & weight.

[Christine and Daisy]

Is Murphy a standard size? I am just curious as my mini/medium is also 5 months and weights less.

I will look into the low sodium diluted chicken broth as that would be tastier than plain warm water. Thanks for the tidbit about veggies. Perhaps after she's gotten use to the new kibble, and things return to nomal, she can eventually try veggies but way down the road.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Christine, I don't think you should be adding any vegetables, because as we discussed before, Daisy needs to get back to eating commercial foods. She is too young to be getting the majority of her calories from homecooked foods, and obviously her digestive system is not ready for all of this. It really shouldn't be this complicated. Puppies should be on a commercial diet until they have achieved full skeletal growth. They desperately need the balance of nutrients and minerals that commercial age-appropriate formulas provide, in the exact proper balance. No kind of cooked vegetable can substitute for that.
I really don't have a wealth of knowledge about this topic, because to be honest, I have never dealt with it before. We advised you that Daisy is too young for homecooking in a previous discussion. I would give Daisy the Orijen in the amount recommended on the bag for her age and weight, with maybe a spoonful or two of the homecooked food mixed in, not the other way around. If it helps her to soak the food first to soften it, that's fine. If she has soft or runny stools wait a few days and they should firm up. You can continue the pumpkin, and you can also give her a little plain (not vanilla) yogurt. Dogs go through digestive upsets when their diets change. Daisy would have adjusted to commercial foods after a few days of soft or runny stools, and that would have been that. Now that she's been eating fresh foods almost exclusively, she has a taste for them, and of course the dry food isn't as appealing. But I cannot stress to you enough that she may develop serious health problems down the line if she is not put onto a good commercial diet for the majority of her calories. All the changes and digestive upsets are further jeopardizing her health because of the loss of nutrients & fluids from diarrhea.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I feel you have not gotten the message about this in our previous discussions, so I am trying to make the point clear.
I will answer the question about potatoes, as it may be informative down the road. In nutritional terms, potatoes belong in the starch group, with grains, not in the fruit and vegetable group. (For you humans, a serving of ptoatoes does not count toward your five daily servings of fruits & vegetables either.)

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I agree. I know how frustrating this can be, but she really does need to be getting her nutrition from the Orijen at this age. I only give the two tablespoons of home cooking (at the most) to make the kibble more enjoyable. I'm home cooking anyway for my 15 month old Doodle so I just take a spoonful of his meal and add it in. As for how much you should be feeding, you need to follow the label for the age and weight of your dog. Clearly one tbsp is nowhere near enough. Why are you still mixing it with the Canidae? I would transition over to the Orijen....I see no need to be mixing in another food at this point. I guess the point is that the kibble needs to be her primary food source. If you want to add in a little home cooking to that's just an "extra", and I wouldn't recommend more than a spoonful or two, and I'd keep it very limited and bland (like the chicken and rice).

[Christine and Daisy]

This is so upsetting to me. Yes, your email did come across as slightly harsh. I have been on this site constantly looking for helpful hints. All I have wanted from Day 1 after we brought her home from the animal hospital was to get her off the homecooking & back on a commercial puppy food asap.

It was recommended to me from the vet at the animal hospital to stick to the cooked rice and chicken til her system can handle it...Karen, you mentioned that to me as well on May 24th. ("Stay with the plain chicken & rice again until the poops are normal") Her poops are not normal. That is why I am on here almost everyday. I am just following the advice I was given. I know the homecooking is not helping her in the long run, I know she needs more vitamins and minerals, trust me, I am stressed about this everyday. I was waiting for them to firm up slightly so I could increase the kibble. I had asked about what vegetables were easy to digest, I was told peas, beans and carrots.

Now I see that you are suggesting to me to just give the kibble with a minor amount of homecooking. I don't remember reading that suggestion until now. Thank you for making that clear, I fully understand now.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I would suggest that for the short term a canine , vitamin pill which I wouldn't ordinarily suggest might be a good idea. Also, ask your vet if giving her some calcium is okay. When Daisy is fully on a good kibble she shouldn't need supplements.

[Christine and Daisy]

Thanks for the suggestion. She takes a Nu-Vet Plus supplement daily which is not a favorite on this site (due to high cost), but the breeder started her on it so I am continuing at least for now, til I run out of the 90 pills!

This supplement has 100mg of calcium in it. as well as Vitamins A,E and C, plus phosphorous, potassium, zinc and selenium.

I was told to give her the supplement til she's a year old. I feel better going through all this knowing she is still getting some vitamins and minerals.