To Ban or Not to Ban Pit Bulls?

[Adina P]

How do you feel about Pit Bulls...while the topic has come up before, I wanted everyone to read this article by well known author, Malcolm Gladwell:

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_06_a_pitbull.html

After reading his arguments...what do you think?

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

Karen, you are absolutely right!....I was quoting from Dr Deborah Goodwin...The study presents evidence that suggests the more "wolfy" a specific breed appears physically the more wolf-like they are behavioraly. Huskies are on the top of the list and Shepherds are listed as the exception.....My bad.....

http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/63574/

"To study the connection between wolfy looks and wolf behaviors, she chose the fifteen most important aggressive and submissive behaviors wolves use to communicate with each other during a conflict, and then observed ten dog breeds to see which breeds expressed which behaviors. Aggressive behaviors included things like growling, teeth baring, “standing over” (one dog puts its head over the other dog’s body), and “standing erect” (the dog stands as tall as it can, with its back arched and its hackles up). Submissive behaviors were things like muzzle licks, looking away (the submissive dog averts its eyes and very slowly turns its head away), crouching, and the passive submit; where the dog lies on its back and exposes its anogenital area.

"Dr. Goodwin found that Siberian huskies, which of the ten breeds look the most like wolves, had all fifteen behaviors, whereas Cavalier King Charles spaniels, which look nothing like wolves, had only two. The correlation between looking like a wolf and acting like a wolf was pretty strong across all ten breeds, with some interesting exceptions.

Three of the four gun dogs — cocker spaniels, Labrador retrievers, and golden retrievers — had somewhat more wolfy behaviors than their appearance predicted, and two of the sheepdogs — German shepherds and Shetland sheepdogs — had somewhat fewer wolfy behaviors than their pointy noses and ears predicted.

The German shepherd and Shetland sheepdog are probably the exceptions that prove the rule because their facial features were deliberately bred into them starting with sheepherding stock. The German shepherd was intentionally bred to look as much like a wolf as possible.

Dr. Goodwin says that may mean that once a breed has lost a behavior you can’t bring the behavior back just by changing its appearance. So although looks and behavior go together genetically, they can also be separated genetically. She thinks the reason the gun dogs kept as many wolfy behaviors as they did might be because hunting dogs need “a fuller range of ancestral behavior” to do their job."

Even with the exceptions, the overall order supported her hypothesis:


Cavalier King Charles spaniel: 2 wolf behaviors out of 15
Norfolk terrier: 3 of 15
French bulldog: 4 of 15
Shetland sheepdog: 4 of 15
Cocker spaniel: 6 of 15
Munsterlander: 7 of 15
Labrador retriever: 9 of 15
German shepherd: 11 of 15
Golden retriever: 12 of 15
Siberian husky: 15 of 15

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

Interestingly enough the same study suggests that dogs that are less wolf-like in appearence such as brachycephalic breeds (short or flat wide snout such as Pit Bulls) appear to be less likely to socially resolve conflict with other dogs and are instead more likely to display fear and aggression and be less social all the way around......

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This is really fascinating!

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

What?...that I admitted to being wrong in a public forum???...LOL!

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Ban one breed and where do you stop? It becomes a preference or vendetta. On a personal note I am afraid of all of the 'powerful' dog breeds. I consider that my problem and in my wishful thinking there would be none of those breeds. But I think that is both unfair and unrealistic. It really is the poor breeding and bad ownership that creates a 'bad' dog. We have some doodles here on doodlekisses who appear aggressive - should doodles become one of the banned breeds?! I think it is unfair of insurance companies, cities etc. to place bans on certain breeds. What if it is a mix and doesn't look like the banned breed - how would you exclude it? What if it isn't one of those breeds but does look kind of like one? DNA testing???? My son's Doberman was banned from a campground we frequented because of his breed. He had his good citizen certificate. He was so well trained that he would keep his stay while my son left the house for an errand. He would not take food from anyone but family...... Our old dog Simon was attacked by a boxer at that campground when he was a pup. That dog breed wasn't banned by the campground so....

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

You raise a lot of good points, Nancy.
I think this was posted here before, but it's a good illustration of your point "What if it isn't one of those breeds but does look kind of like one?"
Find the Pit Bull

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

There were quite a few of the dogs that scare me shown, but only one was a pit so.....

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I'd like to respond to the point about insurance companies banning certain breeds. In my "former life" I actually implemented that ban for the large, national insurer I worked for. All of our eligibility requirements and price points were driven by data. We "crunched" our experience data constantly which resulted in the way we determined the business we would accept and how we would price it. We would not provide a Homeowners policy to anyone owning a Pit Bull (or a few other breeds) because our experience told us that they were more likely to result in liability claims. In fact, they were so much more likely that we were unable to price for this exposure. Our operational process provided an escalation path for exceptions to be made, but that was extremely rare (e.g. CGC certification). Insurance is all about generalization based on hard data. In isn't perfect, but it is objective.

[Nancie & Gracie Doodle]

I have absolutely no use for Pit Bulls!!! I avoid them at all costs and refuse to let Gracie get near one. I am sorry but you can't convince me that they can be a good dog. Where we live in San Diego, Pitt Bulls are very popular. We live on the peninsula in Point Loma. Our beach is Ocean Beach which is filled with kids that are traveling and mooching off society and stay in Youth Hostles or on the street. When I was a kid it was safe to hang out at the beach but now we have nothing but crazies and homeless or hippy type people. All are looking for handouts. And...all have dogs!!! None of them are licensed, trained or have received their shots (at least I assume so since they don't have the money to pay a vet). The two dogs that are the most popular are the Pitt Bulls and the Rotweiller (sp). Both I detest. Gracie has been attacked while on a leash by two different Rottweillers and one lives next door! Think about it...the owners like to put those black collars with the spikes sticking out on their dogs.. Now what does that tell you? It certainly is not an invite to be your friend! There is a message being sent and they like to think they have really cool kick ass dogs! Sorry for the language but this conversation has push my button. Not to mention that the males are totally left "in tact" because that is the macho thing to do! Okay, I have vented. Give me a few beers and look at me go!!! haha

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

Exactly!...The dogs that require the most responsible owners are almost always owned by the most irresponsible people!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Nancie, you have proven the point that it is the owners that are the problem,not the dogs. If these "kids that are traveling and mooching off society and stay in Youth Hostles or on the street", and are "crazies and homeless or hippy type people" had any kind of dogs, even standard poodles or golden retrievers, and "None of them are licensed, trained or have received their shots" "the owners like to put those black collars with the spikes sticking out on their dogs" "There is a message being sent and they like to think they have really cool kick ass dogs" and "the males are totally left "in tact" -what do you think the dogs would be like? These are not the dogs' choices, these are the choices of irresponsible owners. I guarantee you that even Gracie would attack other dogs if she belonged to these people and had no vet care, was not spayed, was not well-fed, had no dependable routine, and was encouraged to be "kick-ass".
Yes, certain breeds have a propensity for certain kinds of behaviors, but any dog would act out under those circumstances. I don't think it's fair to blame the dog, or condemn an entire breed, for the ignorance of the owners.
I have been kissed in the face, and my grandson has been kissed in the face at the age of 2 years old, by more than one pitbull. I will admit I would not have allowed Jack to get close to them.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

If you want to convince me that pits or any other breed should be banned, tell me the opposite story. Tell me you know of people who took a well-bred, well-socialized pit bull puppy into their home, neutered him, nurtured him, trained him, loved him, exercised him, gave him a stable routine, and he turned out to be a vicious cur who attacked people or other dogs without provocation. Where are those kinds of stories? We don't hear them because they don't happen.