I need some guidance on using an E-collar!

[diane silver]

I'm feeling very stressed about my decision to try an E-collar with Emma.  Though she is now two , (I thought she'd outgrow it), she will still sometimes chase running children (my grandsons included), nipping at their hands and feet, and also will make a "bee line" for the mud puddle at the local dog park, with me constantly trying to have her "come" or to "leave it."  I purchased an e-collar and it's still in the packaging, since I'm feeling very torn about even trying to use it, knowing that there's so much controversy about them.  I certainly want to use it properly, use a "tone" initially, etc., etc., and I have a good friend who uses one very effectively on her prey-driven, small dog (she's offered to help me).  I'm wondering if I should hire a professional trainer to observe Emma and tell me if an E-collar is something that would be beneficial, or if I should return it, or . . . . . we're about to have our third grandchild, and obviously, I want to nip this behavior before the baby begins crawling, etc.  Any guidance from anyone would be so appreciated - I've come to you all many times before, and value your opinions.  Thanks.

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

Hello, I know there is a lot of controversy over them but we do have the e-fence and the remote trainer. In our case it was hard for me at first but in the end I am completely happy with our decision. We have the Innotek Contain & Train. If I reach for the remote Hunter stops whatever behavior she knows she is doing wrong. I have only had to actually use it 2 times just the beeping tone is enough for her - or like I saidjust reaching for the remote. We have the fence in our yard also and it has been great. She doesn't even go to where she hears a beep anymore. I had the same reservations at first but in the end you have to go with your gut feeling, it could end up being a great training device for you.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Let me start by saying...this is only my OPINION, and I'm clearly not an expert. I'm sure you'll get a really wide range of feedback on this which is great. I would not use an E-collar for either of my Doodles. My guys are very sensitive and intuitive, and they respond so much better to positive training methods. I don't know what Emma's personality is, but I think you would want to take that into consideration. My guys will also chase the grandkids, which can be a problem with the little ones. It's only normal for them to do that, because the kids get them all excited, and they think it's a game. So, we've had to teach the kids that if they're going to be racing around, it has to be outside, and the dogs stay in or are leashed with me. When they're playing with the dogs, they've learned that it just isn't fair to get them all excited and then expect them to not display bad behaviors. Believe it or not, it is working well, and the kids do "get it". Our newest little guy is just six months old so he's just now sitting up on the floor and will soon be crawling. I always leash the dogs while he's on the floor or they are gated in another room, and I'll do that until he's walking steadily. The dogs are certainly allowed to be with the baby, but I'm always right there watching, and because they're on a leash I can easily react if I need to. They absolutely love the baby....their favorite thing is to lick his bare feed, but I still watch carefully to be sure they don't get too exuberant. My guys (Guinness and Murphy) are now reliable with their sit and down stay commands, so I use that whenever the kids are playing with things I don't want them to get...like Legos. I think it's as important to train the kids as the dogs. The mud puddle is another story. They love mud...it's just normal. Guinness does really well with the "leave it" command (after many months of training), but I'm not sure I'd trust him around the mud puddle...I'd avoid it. I'd have a real hard time giving an E-collar correction for something that just comes so naturally to a dog. My trainer's opinion on E-collars is that they can work, but she only recommends them for dogs who are very strong willed and who are not responding to positive training approaches. Even in these cases, she supports their use only for serious behavior problems (aggressiveness, guarding). Again, this is my opinion only, and it is based on my own experience with my Doodles. Congrats on the third grandchild! Grandkids are such a gift.

[Eva (Lilo and Rocky)]

Have you tried a citronella spray collar? May do the trick.

I was totally against e-collars until I ran out of options to train one of my dogs not to chase deer. I tried all the positive training tricks I could think of and also tried the spray collar, but nothing worked. Consulted two local trainers who both said that the only way to break a strong prey drive is an e-collar. It was either an accident waiting to happen (dog getting injured or worse), or break the habit for good. Of course I do not want to lose my dog. So I got a high quality collar and followed the instructions carefully - and it has worked. I even tried the shock on myself to see how strong it was... and it wasn't. But enough of an impact to get the message across.

It is important that you break your dog into the collar in a safe place and that it is positioned correctly on her neck. If the collar doesn't come with instructions, get professional advice on how to use it safely (or have your friend teach you if she knows the collar you bought).

Good luck! I would personally be really worried about the dog injuring a small child whether it was a grandchild or not. Kids are kids and you can't expect them to remember to not run when the dog is around.

[Adina P]

I have never used one, but have been tempted. Honestly, I don't think there is anything really "wrong" with using an e-collar. They can be used very effectively.

However, if you are going to use training that involves some form of discomfort that the dog experiences, you MUST feel confident. I think the only reason I'd advise you to NOT use it is because you're so nervous about it and I think that might influence the way you use it, and your timing. Talk to your friend more and talk to this guy: Lou Castle (he's very responsive to questions, has excellent articles and you can email him with your questions). If you decide you want to use it, then get really comfortable with all the ins and outs, ways to do it right, ways to do it wrong...but I would recommend you put it off for a while.

How much training has Emma had? Sounds to me NOT like she has a specific problem, but that she's not DONE training and needs more work. Sounds like you might want to be in training mode with kids farther away...then kids closer...then kids nearby. I bet Emma responds very well (or at least much better) when kids are not there...perhaps you've even trained around some easier distractions? In any case, kids are a BIG distraction for her and you need to treat her as though she is "IN TRAINING" until she gets over it and can handle being obedient when they are around. There's no reason she can't learn this without an e-collar.

In the meantime when you really cannot take the time to train her with the grandchildren at your house: crate her, put up a baby gate to block her from getting in their way, put a leash on her, AND (as Jane mentioned) train the grandkids too! Make it a game for them to respond a certain way when Emma gets excited.

Same with the mud puddle...I don't consider this an isolated problem. I consider this a dog not finished with the recall command. If Emma was super solid on the recall...then you could just call her. Dogs failing at things they are otherwise good at (with the exception of something huge like prey drive) merely shows you a HOLE in training. It shows you an area that needs extra work and an area that should NOT be allowed to happen. So if you want Emma to NOT bee line for the mud puddle...then she can NOT be near mud puddles off leash. Perhaps no dog parks until she's gotten control of mud puddles elsewhere. Just my opinion. If her response is THAT important to you...then more training is needed.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I have used an e collar for Luca, a Dogtra only on the vibrate mode and started under the supervision of his trainer. It really helped with his recall but he needs more practice.But just last evening I started a DVD, purchased months ago, by Ed Frawley of Leerburg. I know there are some controversies about this. But Calla has been escaping form my driveway gate regularly and running to a neighbor she likes and another neighbor's compost heap. Why she'll eat rotten cucumbers and not fresh ones is beyond me--no stink I guess. Needless to say more driveway gate work underway but short of a concrete barrier she's hard to contain. Thankfully she doesn't go far but of course, even on my little lane, it's dangerous. So I am going to start using the collar on her after I finish instructing myself. Ed Frawley believes in the e collar so strongly that he says he'll never train another dog without one although he believes in positive reinforcement first. I got the DVD through Amazon. My trainer always emphasized that when a dog didn't respond you needed to go after it and give a correction. Well, that's hard to do with a big yard, and neighborhood, and some knee problems. I don't want her to be on a leash in the yard all the time. So I feel, for me, this is vital to protect my dog. Better an e collar than being hit by a car.

[Zoe, Benny and Tyler]

If you don't feel comfortable using an E-collar why don't you get a collar with citronella spray instead? It works the same way with a remote control and a sound for praise. The spray is not sprayed into the dog's face but under the chin and it is actually the smell which is causing the reaction.
Good luck!

[F, Calla & Luca]

Some further thoughts. Is anys dog ever finished training? No more than people I think and there's always room for improvement. The collars can hurt. As usual, I tried it first on myself. I could barely feel the lower levels on my thigh but when I got to about #6 my leg shot out from an involuntary muscle contraction. I have never used the stimulation on Luca but I suspect Calla will need it. She has gotten a nasty sore on her nose from burrowing under my gate, in the space a weasel would have difficulty getting through. That didn't prevent repeat performances. So you have to first see what level of stimulation your dog responds to. We had a bloodhound in class who needed a really high level but many dogs do not.

[Adina P]

Yup...I think some dogs ARE finished in training. I know some trainers who have those dogs. I don't. But they do. Probably most of us on here don't and may never. Our sole hobby is not training. So it's not easy. But I do think a dog can be trained well enough to hold a stay in their own yard while kids are playing. It just takes a bit more work. And if the ecollar is what it takes...that's okay too. I am all for using whatever tools are available and using them correctly.

[Miranda]

Hi Diane,

Yes there is a lot of controversy with using an E-collar. The reason I used it (Dogtra was the brand) was because Cali is SO ball focused, that if the ball went into the street...she went after it. (she also jumped over a fence to get a happy meal someone threw out of their car window!!) I had a professional trainer help me use e-collar, and I did not use it until after he did more extensive training with Cali. I lived in NJ at the time, and there were not many dog friendly places where I lived that I could let Cali off leash to play with her ball. (i never let her play ball in dogs runs because she would get too aggression with it). Anyway, we used to go to a field to play but it was not fenced, there were train tracks nearby, and a few roads. The e-collar really helped with "come" "stay" and "no". However, before the e-collar was even used...the trainer used a "long line" (maybe like 30 feet long) attached to a regular collar and would correct her with that when she wouldn't come when called. He also used extremely high value treats like boiled chicken and hot dogs. Before using the e-collar as a correction method, we put it on Cali for about a week so she got used to it. A lot of dogs become "collar smart" and know that when a specific collar is on they can behave differently. So the e-collar has to be the collar that's on Emma whenever she would normally wear her collar. After the trainer showed me how to use the e-collar and that Cali understood the word NO, I've only ever had to use the collar a handful of times to correct her. She always comes when called, drops the ball when she's told, and stays put when I tell her too. It's great! I def. felt safer taking her to play when I knew she was under my control. I also can take her to the beach or hiking without any fear of her taking off. I think the e-collar was a great teaching tool for us, but it's not for everyone. I honestly don't even use it with her anymore, and I think that's the key. The trainer I worked with is based in NJ, but you could always email him if you have questions. His email is [e-mail]. Website with his info is www.idealk9.com. Hope this helps!

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I haven't read the other posts, but I would let your friend help you use it.

[Nancie & Gracie Doodle]

There are many of you on DK who have come to know me through our groups, comments, blogs, discussions, etc. And, you all know how much I love my Gracie Doodle and I would never do anything to hurt her or abuse her in any way. We feel that the hand should only give them pleasure not pain...to hitting or spanking ever! Gracie Doodle is a very smart girl and really "gets" it quickly. The only area where I have absolutely not control is with the tennis ball. She is completely obsessed with it and if it rolls down the hill or out into the street she won't listen to a word I say to stop her from running right after it. I DO have an e-collar but only ever use it for one reason and even then, I use the tone. Initially I did have to zap her once or twice so she understood but now, just having it on is almost always enough. She just seems to know and will almost always respond to my command. We live on a hill and every afternoon we meet up with the other neighborhood dogs on a neighbors front lawn and use the chuck its and throw the balls up the sidewalk or to other yards. We always send them up hill but sometimes a ball goes in the street and rolls all the way down the hill. Gracie can't let a ball get past her. If she sees one of the other dogs balls rolling down the hill she will take off after it. No recall will bring her back. If I use the collar and hit the button she will stop and sit down immediately until I can get to her. My collar has a range of up to #7 and I never have had to go beyond #3. Usually a tone will work but if there is a lot of noise and people yelling and dogs barking the confusion is too much and then a quick zap has to be given. I have never used the collar to train her in any other way. I only use it when we are in a dangerous situation and it is there to save her life. The intersection at the bottom of our hill can be busy at school let out times when all the parents use the back streets to avoid traffic. We are in a cul de sac but the cross street has the traffic. It is because I LOVE Gracie and would never forgive myself is she were hit by a car that I have the collar. We have another DK member who contacted me about the use of the collar and she ended up giving it a try. Like me, she only had to use it once or twice and her Doodle got the message and now they are all able to go to the park and she won't run off. She knows me personally and know the love and kindness I have for my Gracie and that I only ever have her best interests at heart. I am sure I will probably start a lot of controversy with this reply but so be it. We can all keep our Doodles locked up or denied trips to the park, ball playing with other dogs and interacting with family. Or we can get a message to them just once and everyone is happy and they are better off for it. PS Gracie is NOT food motivated so there is not a treat made that will recall her back when she has a tennis ball rolling past her nose. She will recall at any other time but with a tennis ball!! I too have tested the intensity and the #3 that I use does not "curl your hair".

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

You're absolutely right...we all know how much you love your Gracie. This gets back to what I was saying about really knowing yourself and your dog. I really don't need it for my guys, because they have been so "trainable". Don't get me wrong, it has (and continues) to take a lot of work, but I really don't find any situations where I need to use an E collar. This is a really good thing, because I know it would be almost impossible for me to feel comfortable. It's just me. I'm firm with them, and I know they see me as their leader, but when it comes to something like this I would be a big "softie", and they'd surely sense my discomfort. Both my Doods are totally into treats, and they will do just about anything for a good treat. They're also into "me", and will do just about anything to please me (I wish that worked for people). Again, that's lucky for me. Anyone who has gotten to know you, Nancie, would know that you would never be mean or abusive to Gracie.