Training "Boot Camp"

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I had a really interesting experience today.  My brother has a pretty out of control Lab.  He's had a number of trainers over the past year, and nothing seemed to work.  So, he decided he would send her to a two week training "boot camp".  I was not in favor of this.  It was amazingly expensive, and I really had doubts that it could work.  Plus I worried about her being away like that for two weeks.  Today I went with him to pick her up, and I have to say I have totally changed my mind.  This was a different dog...and she was really a happy dog.  She could heel like a pro, did a sit stay for 30 minutes while we were talking, was totally focused on whoever was handling her leash (the trainer or my brother), understood and responded to the word "no" consistently, was never distracted by toys being thrown around her, and so much more.  She seemed so calm and really happy.  It was truly amazing.  There were a few things that I took away from this "debrief" that I plan to incorporate into my own training, and I thought I'd share them...

 

-Using the word "no" for whenever the dog is doing something you don't want them to do makes life so much simpler for them.  If they have to learn things like "leave it" or "drop it" it is more difficult for them to process.  If you can catch them as they are starting to do something (like pick up something they shouldn't have) and give them a "no" command that's the best approach (in his opinion).

-The volume of your voice should never change, but the tone should.  There should be a tone for giving a command, another one for praise, and a different one for telling them "no".  Your body language and facial expression should match your tone.

-This trainer does not use treats at all, but he does use lots of praise.  His thought is that praise is their reward.  I saw this Lab constantly looking at him to guage his reaction.  Even when by brother took over she was doing the same thing. (I will continue to use treats, but maybe a little less frequently.)

-He did use a training collar (my brother referred to it as a choke collar, and was quickly corrected).  He uses it to give a quick reminder when the dog is doing something wrong.  There was absolutely nothing punative in what I saw.  It was a very immediate, fast tug on the leash to send a message. He said once the dog is in maintenance mode you would probably not need the collar...instead you would use a particular sound.  That's what I do now.

-It was fascinating to hear him talk about how well our dogs read our body language.  He said they are even able to notice slight differences in our facial muscles, and can clearly understand our adrenaline levels through their sense of smell.  He believes it is almost impossible to hide our true feelings from our dogs....he said a stressed out owner will result in a stressed out dog.

-He believes that most of us really underestimate what our dogs are capable of doing.  We put them in a sit/stay for five minutes, and think that's great.  He puts them in that position for an hour.  He feels it teaches them self control which ultimately results in a more fulfilled dog. His thought is that most of us never provide the challenges that will result in a dog who is trully fulfilled, confident, and self assured. I think I fall into this trap.  I know I could be challenging my guys more.

-He believes dogs should be in training mode a good portion of the day.  Actually he keeps them in that state of mind unless he actually releases them.  I agree with this.  I used to do specific training times once or twice a day, but lately I've just been incorporating training throughout the day.

 

These are just a few key things that I took away.  There are so many more that I know I'm forgetting (Crafts).  The key will be whether my brother can keep it up at home.  This trainer is going to come to him home a couple of times over the next week, so that will help.  What really impressed me was how calm and happy this dog was....moreso than I have ever seen her.  I also noticed how totally bonded this dog had become with the trainer in just two weeks.  I'm really writing this because in the past I had said that I had serious doubts about these types of training experiences, and I'm feeling that I was wrong.  Of course, it depends on the trainer, but in this particular case I've seen an absolutely amazing transformation.  Maybe there really are true "dog whisperers"...LOL.  More likely, there are just some people who really understand how to gain the trust of a dog and then teach and reward them in a meaningful way which produces a very positive change in behavior.  We couldn't resist asking him about his opinion of Cesar Milan.  Of course, he was being politically correct, but he said he had seen him do great work with very difficult dogs.  Where he differed most signifficantly was in regard to praise.....he said that Cesar assumes that the dog is able to read that the trainer is happy when they are complying, where he doesn't want to take that for granted...so he always gives praise when the dog is following a command.

 

I'd love anyone's thoughts on this.  It is sort of a "brain dump" while it's all fresh in my mind.  I find this whole area of training to be absolutely fascinating.  My Doods are probably going to be saying..."here we go again...LOL

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

Very interesting! I'm going to see if I can put my thoughts in some sort of order, because they are sort of all over the place after reading your thoughts. (Note my thoughts are not in regards to your brother, but my thoughts on this type of training in general).

I, like you were, am very skeptical of this sort of training. IMO, this should only be as a last resort. If one has truly tried everything that they could to train their dog and nothing was working, then maybe. By that I don't mean someone who went to one set of training classes and didn't spend any time training at home. But I think that you would have to be the type of person that understands dog training, and grasp the concept. I just feel like if you want a dog, you should be willing to devote the time that it takes to train. If you say you are really busy and don't have the time, then maybe you shouldn't have a dog to start with. If you don't have the time to train him, you don't have the time to continue the training. If you don't have the time to spend with the dog, you will have a bored, misbehaved dog. I realize there are some dogs that have some issues that it takes an expert to help you correct, but I'm just not sure that leaving the dog with someone else to train is the answer IMO! I see these people on shows like Caesars (and others) that are standing their shaking their heads like they understand, and you can see in their eyes they don't have a clue. There is so much bonding that goes on in the process of training, and I just would not have wanted to miss that. I will be very curious to see how this continues to translate to your brother. Will he be able to capture the same respect that the trainer had. I'm thinking that very few people would be able to unless they have a good training knowledge to start with.

Jane, loved hearing your experience and will look forward to hearing how the process continues at home! Thanks for sharing.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I have always felt exactly the same way. In this case, it really wasn't about time or commitment to the training. This is a sweet Lab, but totally headstrong and very "alpha". My brother has been training her for a year with very little progress. This was clearly a "last resort" for him. I still feel, like you, that training a dog yourself is the best route in most situations. I'm just relieved because it appears there could be a good outcome with this dog...assuming he is able to produce the same behavior.

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

I'm very excited to continue to watch to see how this works out for him. I also applaud him for taking this most drastic step (particularly financially) to invest in the dogs future rather than just dropping her off at the local pound like so many we see. He is definitely a great person and has a strong desire to help the dog.

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

I think that sounds great - I will definitely take some of those tidbits, especially the "no" bit and less treating.

[Adina P]

Interesting what he said about CM and praise. I have never considered CM to be a trainer in the obedience sense...only in a 'get some control over that monster!' sense. So to me he's more of a 'how to stop your dog' from doing ____. Praise in that context does seem to be less important than in training a dog to do something specific like obey commands. In obedience training (especially that which involves corrections) praise seems to become more meaningful to a dog and lets him know when he's RIGHT.

I'm not sure someone whose main form of reward is food or who uses purely positive training can significantly reduce treats...yes, in PP training treats are to move from a consistent to a variable reward schedule..but they can't decrease tons or else the dog's motivation (if it was used for a food motivated dog) to respond to commands/cues will also decrease. I don't think dogs typically care about praise except when it's a marker for "You got it right" because dogs, like people, want to please themselves and get things right =)

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

He's using praise to let the dog know what they did was "right" and also as their reward for making that choice. So, to him CM is assuming that the dog knows what he did was "right" because there was no correction and from the body language that he is communicating. He is skipping the "praise as a reward" step which is the key component of this trainer's approach. My brother's dog would probably fall into that "monster" category. LOL

Here's what he says about the "treats"...Dogs do not learn from being corrected. On the contrary, they learn when they are rewarded. Correcting a negative behavior only gives you the opportunity to get your dog's attention so you can reward his good behavior. Dogs can interpret eye contact as confrontational, especially delivered in conjunction with discipline. When you want to correct a negative behavior, simply tell your dog, NO, without making eye contact. Use eye contact as a form of positive reinforcement. When rewarding your dog for good behavior, his reward should be YOU and your praise and petting. You can also give your dog treats when they are first learning new commands, but do so sparingly. You want your dog to think of you as the ultimate reward, so you don't have to rely on food to get him to obey your commands. He actually did not use any treats with my brother's dog. This dog has been totally food motivated in the past...actually when he did obey it was only to get treats. So getting him to change his behavior while also eliminating treats with a food motivated Lab must have been a challenge. I plan to continue using treats, but not as much as I have been.

[Beth Lord]

Wow, sounds like a great experience overall! I really, really agree on the whole point of dogs taking their cue from our body language, and on how important eye contact is. Also on staying in "training mode" throughout the day. If we don't do that, our clever doodles easily figure out "I don't always have to listen, only sometimes..." !! While there are many different styles of training, obviously this trainer has done an excellent job of building rapport with the dog. My guess is that the training WILL stick...your brother sounds very motivated! Thanks for sharing!

[Adina P]

I agree too with staying in 'training mode' as often as possible. But I don't think of it as 'training mode' because that makes it sound as though real life is something different and training mode is a temporary thing. The whole purpose of obedience training is so you can USE the training and be able to have our dogs DO the things they have been trained to do. There's no use in knowing heel, sit, down, stay if they aren't used. Use it or lose it!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

He means that the dog comes out of "training mode" after a formal release of "all done" (I use okay). This is the dog's time to play and relax. He may go back into training mode 10 minutes later when the trainer puts him in a down/stay while he works on the computer for an hour. If the dog gets up, he will be told NO and put back into the down/stay again until released. He said he does this type of thing all throughout the day. He may then release him again, and the dog goes and gets a toy to play with. Then, say he's going to walk to the mailbox to get the mail, he would put the dog in a heel....all these are going on all day (but they are always concluded with a release). Does that make sense? I'm not sure I'm explaining it well.

[Adina P]

I understand. I'm just being picky :-P I would call it "working mode" if the dog is more or less done with training that particular thing to indicate he's learned it and now he has to use it (or at least practice it).

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Okay....got it.

[Adina P]

Cool...I like it when I agree ;-) True about CM. But he's not teaching a positive. And by 'positive' I don't mean what 'positive training' means. I mean CM is all about telling the dog what NOT to do. So praise isn't as a precise tool as it is in obedience training. For example if I'm teaching my dog to heel...he NEEDS to know when he's right...when he's in heel position as I walk around. But if I'm just teaching him to NOT do something...then virtually all the other 99 out of 100 choices are 'right' so to speak so there's no precision in "good boy." Whereas as "yes" "good dog" "what a good boy" said at the precise moment the dog gets something right and repeatedly every so often is a lot more meaningful, I would say. I'm not arguing against CM praising...I'm just saying what CM does and what THIS trainer (or most trainers do) is different so the role of praise is gonna be different (even though I would probably praise my dog if he responded to a "NO" by not proceeding with his intended behavior).

I also agree that dogs don't learn what you want via correction. They DO learn THE MOST when they can get it RIGHT. And if things are tipped too far to the correction side where the dog is failing frequently...he won't learn. He'll only learn that he's helpless in figuring out and respond in a few undesireable ways that do NOT yield good obedience.

And for the training method I use, when a dog IS corrected he is made correct so he CAN get the praise for being RIGHT.