Alpha theory vs. Positive training...HELP...so confused!

[Julie Mison]

Many of you know that my mom and I have posted on and off about our Chewie who is now 15 months.  We have used trainers that first taught us about Alpha theory/dominance to more recently complete positive reinforcement training.  Our recent trainer has given us literature disputing the dominance theory and alpha research.  However, we continue to struggle with Chewie and are very overwhelmed.  We know, in part, we need to be more consistent, however, it feels like Chewie runs the show and we always have to use treats to get him to listen.

 

Chewie does display very challenging and dominant type behaviors.  He barks at us when he wants something, paws at us, jumps at us and mouths us to try to get us to do things.  When he doesn't like something...he will bark at us.  He has had a history of resource guarding and handling issues since he was very young.  First time he growled and snapped...he was just over 8 weeks of age when we tried to pick him up when he was tired at night.  He is like this with his high value items and at times when handled.  We typically know his "triggers" but nonetheless it feels like we always have to watch out. 

 

We have two young girls....7 and 8.5 and we love Chewie very much.  He loves the kids but gets very demanding with them as well.  Interesting, he is very well behaved when he goes to day care/camp and they even use him to help temperment test the new dogs.

 

Lately, he has been more defiant...not sitting when asked (he knows basic commands) and will not come when called to get his leash on. 

 

So...we are so conflicted.  All dogs need training but for CHewie it is imperative.  We just heard about a trainer who is willing to do "Doggie Bootcamp" where he would live with her for 1 week and she trains him and then brings him back and trains us and helps us to integrate it into the home.  I have to say...we are a bit exhausted and it sounds wonderful to have someone help us get him to a more managable point and then we could maintain it.  However, this trainer believes and subscribes to the Alpha theory and pack order which we have been disuaded against.  But...when you observe Chewie..he truly does not seem to respect us and rules the house in many ways.

 

I know there are many opinions out there.  We just don't want to do anything that will make the situation worse.  How do we know which is the right way?   I guess I'm just looking for any insights or experiences any of you have had that would help.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

I totally understand. I was just going through this a month ago. I interviewed trainers, read books, researched, checked references. Okay, enough. I become overwhelmed. Sensory overload. Too much. So much. Ugh. The more I learned the less I knew.

Finally we made a decision that my husband and I could both WORK with and stick to it.

Training is for life. Everyday, in every situation ( as I so learned to understand and appreciate from this site).
Pick and Stick To IT. Forever. I've also been warned there is NO Micro Waving of training results. I've been told we have a long way to go. We are now very committed.

Good Luck. I'm with you out here.

[Julie Mison]

Thanks Jennifer for the encouraging words! and Yes it makes sense to compare to children and how they are all different with different needs!

[Adrienne Shapiro]

Hello....I have had my 2 doodles in boot camp. One was 1 year old, the other, most recently, 6 months old. Dogs are pack animals and they need to know who their pack is and their leaders are. Jeff Gellman, our trainer, teaches this. He sets the true spirit of the dog OUT, making everyone in the house happier. After bootcamp, he trains the family. Check out his website: www.solidK9training.com or CALL him, he loves phone calls...he loves helping...Listen to his radio show, call in for FREE advice, or email for free advice...He is all about DOGS and helping...He has everything you could ever want to know on his site....and that to what is on THESE forums and there is an encyclopedia!!! We do get too emtional about our dogs and they count on this to wrap us around their Paw....but they want us to be GOOD LEADERS!!!! Let's lead..

[Laura & Chewie]

Thanks Jennifer and Adrienne. I will check out his website. We had strayed from that pack animal/alpha/leader theory...yes, we're impressionable. It has become quite obvious that Chewie thinks he's boss, so it has been more and more difficult to discount that concept entirely.

A couple of you have used the term "jumpstart" in reference to the bootcamp. That is exactly what we are hoping for...a more reliable foundation on which to build.

At daycare, he is pretty much just playing with the other dogs...I often watch on their webcam. There isn't a lot of interaction with humans...just a warm greeting when he arrives and often a friendly pet on the head during the day as they walk among the dogs. They have a good number of dogs which would make it hard to interact on a individual basis with each one frequently. He presents no problem there, so there isn't much they need to do with him. I know he has pegged us as pushovers...LOL, that's why we want to make the correct choice this time to move forward.

[Adina P]

I agree that you can't really compare his treatment of the daycare workers with his treatment of his family. He knows you well and knows how to get what he wants with you (mostly) so he will treat you differently. But at least you know that given his behavior at the daycare...he's not all out aggressive or anything.

As to the pack leader/alpha ideas. I don't think it matters if the specifics are true or not. Every creature benefits from a good leader. And dogs benefit from obedience training... so as long as the trainer doesn't do things that are harmful and you're confident you can follow-through with your end when the training from the trainer is done....might as well give it a try!

[Laura & Chewie]

Thanks Adina for all your responses...I know free time must be limited with a baby and a new puppy! Everything you have said makes so much sense. I know he won't come back "perfect", but we need more to build on then what we have now. Funny thing is, he really does know most basic commands...he'll sit/stay for his meal forever until I "free" him. He won't go out the door without me going first, IF I'M AT THE DOOR...but he will dart out as the kids go in and out. I'm just so tired of being "tied' to treats...I don't always have a pocket in my pants...LOL.

[Julie Mison]

Thanks Adrienne. Wow..what an impressive website and trainer. I love his passion and how he is willing to put it out there. What area is he in...I couldn't find it on his website although from the area code I can tell he is out of state.

It did really help to read his reasoning and thinking...especially about training methods, etc.

Thanks again!

[Adina P]

I want to say again that I think method matters. Hugely so.

Take a new-to-dog-training person who is committed and give them a mediocre or so-so method. No matter how well they follow the instructions...it will not yield excellent, reliable results. Usually so-so methods do NOT have specific instructions. They have concepts and 100 different options depending on your dog. That doesn't work when someone needs a solid how-to method.

On the other hand, take that new-to-dog-training person who is committed (such as you and your mom) and teach them an excellent, step-by-step method that has a huge success rate...and even if their dog isn't as polished as an expert trainer's dog, that dog will still be far better off and far more reliable and that person will have really great results.

Remember a method is not the same thing as a tool (prong, choke, remote collar, clicker, liver treat, target stick, toy). A method is a step-by-step protocol that has a beginning, middle, and end. A good method has been tried on lots of dogs and found to work for a vast majority of dogs. It's not the same as technique either. A method can have a few varying techniques for accomplishing steps along the way...but the techniques alone aren't the method either.

Why does this matter? Maybe it doesn't. But I think that being confused about Positive training and thinking that is a 'method' or that the prong collar is a method will make you think that all trainers who use the prong collar are equivalent. But they are not. All trainers who use a clicker are also not equivalent. It's the consistent use of a good method, not the tool that trains a dog.

I am positive you simply haven't found a trainer who can help you...so far. I don't think you've failed, the trainers have failed you. Just because someone is a trainer doesn't mean they are capable of helping you. Perhaps this new chick can.

Corrections will not ruin Chewie. The key is that this method needs to include a few important components if it uses corrections...components you will be consistent with:

1) Chewie needs to fully understand what he is to do (such as put his butt on the ground when he hears 'sit') before he is corrected for not doing it. Dogs must understand what the correction is for or else it does seem arbitrary and it can make things worse.

2) Chewie will need consistency in the application of corrections. This means that if the method involves correcting him for a disobeyed command...you will need to correct every time. You can't correct him sometimes and not other times. For one thing it will make him take the chance and disobey more...but it will also ruin his trust of you to some degree. He needs to know you are trustworthy...and that means you follow through. That a missed sit, come, etc will always produce the same corrections for those things. Otherwise he'll be thoroughly confused and not know what to expect and thus not see any point in being consistently obedient.

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

Julie/Laura, I am really sorry to hear of your challenges with Chewie. I am curious about your situation of "joint custody" that you mention. I know nothing about how this arrangement works other than you mention it works well for you. I wonder how it might be affecting Chewie's sense of "pack structure" or leadership? His sense of feeling secure and that someone is in charge? Have any of your trainers addressed this issue?

Tara was a snarling, biting little puppy at 8 weeks too. She was fearful and insecure. To get her past it we had to take very strong leadership roles in her life. She needed (and still needs) to know that someone is in charge and will keep her safe and tell her what to do.

As I said I know nothing about how your arrangement works but could it be confusing to Chewie and not allowing for the security/leadership consistency that he might need? Are all members of both families "on board" with his training on a daily basis?

[Laura & Chewie]

Oh, I can see how our "joint custody" term could be confusing...let me explain. I was widowed 5 years ago. Julie is married with two wonderful daughters of her own. We are very close in all ways...live less than 10 minutes apart and I watch the girls daily. Julie felt I needed the companionship of a dog and also wanted her girls to grow up knowing that love for an animal like she had (the dog we had for 17 yrs). She felt strongly about bringing a dog into her home when they are gone all day,so we came up with the arrangement. Chewie lives here in my home and only here but everyone of us loves him dearly. My granddaughters consider him their dog. The "joint" arrangement is mainly just referring to the fact that we all consider him "our" dog and my daughter splits the financial obligations for him 50/50 to make it more doable for me. Therefore, I don't think this arrangement is affecting him in an adverse way anymore than being in a home where people are in and out.

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

Thanks for explaining, Laura and I have to agree that it doesn't sound like it should be part of the issue for Chewie.

[2m42srv7vi6sq]

My first question is, "Is he neutered"?

His behavior seems very much a "male dominance" thing. Especially since you have daughters.

We have used positive reinforcement, for all our training, for more than 30 years.

Though you are using positive reinforcements, your dog also needs to get a sharp "no", when he does something that is not acceptable in your pack.

I have watched our old Mastiff, with the three younger dogs. and have learnd more from her, than from any trainer, with whom I have ever worked.

Bella sets the boundries, if any of the other three goes past the boundries she has set, she gives a low growl to warn them. If they persist, she barks and nips the air. She has never touched any of them, with her teeth, but has kept her pack in line with love and kisses and the occasional "air nip", since Caeleach first came.

We humans use treats for good behaviors, and turn our backs and ignore them, for bad. Since we are the center of their universe, depriving them of our attention is the ultimate in "BAAADDD!"

My opinion is that, when he acts aggressively, he should be IMMEDIATELY taken to a room and left there alone, for no more than 5 minutes, for a time-out. He will learn that you will NOT tolerate aggressive beahviors and he is not the leader of the pack.

His behaviors will get worse, with time, if not checked now. I worry about a bite, in the future.

I don't like the "doggie bootcamp" approach. He may behave for the trainer, but will revert to his old habits, when he returns home.

You must get him under control, at home.