Alpha theory vs. Positive training...HELP...so confused!

[Julie Mison]

Many of you know that my mom and I have posted on and off about our Chewie who is now 15 months.  We have used trainers that first taught us about Alpha theory/dominance to more recently complete positive reinforcement training.  Our recent trainer has given us literature disputing the dominance theory and alpha research.  However, we continue to struggle with Chewie and are very overwhelmed.  We know, in part, we need to be more consistent, however, it feels like Chewie runs the show and we always have to use treats to get him to listen.

 

Chewie does display very challenging and dominant type behaviors.  He barks at us when he wants something, paws at us, jumps at us and mouths us to try to get us to do things.  When he doesn't like something...he will bark at us.  He has had a history of resource guarding and handling issues since he was very young.  First time he growled and snapped...he was just over 8 weeks of age when we tried to pick him up when he was tired at night.  He is like this with his high value items and at times when handled.  We typically know his "triggers" but nonetheless it feels like we always have to watch out. 

 

We have two young girls....7 and 8.5 and we love Chewie very much.  He loves the kids but gets very demanding with them as well.  Interesting, he is very well behaved when he goes to day care/camp and they even use him to help temperment test the new dogs.

 

Lately, he has been more defiant...not sitting when asked (he knows basic commands) and will not come when called to get his leash on. 

 

So...we are so conflicted.  All dogs need training but for CHewie it is imperative.  We just heard about a trainer who is willing to do "Doggie Bootcamp" where he would live with her for 1 week and she trains him and then brings him back and trains us and helps us to integrate it into the home.  I have to say...we are a bit exhausted and it sounds wonderful to have someone help us get him to a more managable point and then we could maintain it.  However, this trainer believes and subscribes to the Alpha theory and pack order which we have been disuaded against.  But...when you observe Chewie..he truly does not seem to respect us and rules the house in many ways.

 

I know there are many opinions out there.  We just don't want to do anything that will make the situation worse.  How do we know which is the right way?   I guess I'm just looking for any insights or experiences any of you have had that would help.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I was the one who posted about boot camp. My brother was having lots of problems with his 15 month Lab, especially when it came to pulling on the leash. He went to classes and even had a trainer come to the house, but the problems persisted. He opted for a two week boot camp as a last resort, and this is now a different dog. He did fully agree with this trainer's approach and was able to follow it when the dog came home. He and the dog spent he last week with us and I was really impressed with this dog's behavior. She was able to be off lead most of the time with no nonsense. The trainer has followed up with my brother and has been to his home twice to observe and critique. I think the key to the success in this case was that the dog got a jump start during those two weeks and my brother had a solid METHOD to use when she came home.

[Julie Mison]

First, thanks to all of you for your support. Second, let me clarify that yes, we are getting very specific and trying to understand exactly what the training methods will be. We spent an hour on the phone yesterday and have an inperson meeting scheduled to understand further. Also..we are also very aware that he will not be 100% with us (although he will probably be with her) when he comes back but will have more of a foundation that WE can than feel confident about and able to build on. The trainer herself did say that unless you are expert in training...Chewie would be VERY difficult to get under control. Obviously when one gets a dog they should be prepared for responsibility and the committment but the issues Chewie has had are not exactly the most typical. The trainer was shocked that an 8 week old puppy displayed the behaviors he did.

In terms of what we've done..Chewie has completed a basic obediance class. He knows his commands. He is very inconsistant and often still relys on a treat. We have worked with him a lot and yet the realities of life...a joh...two kids...etc...etc...do make it a bit difficult. Not excuses..just reality.

In terms of the time the trainer spends at the end of boot camp...she does as many sessions as we need. We have lifetime support via sessions and phone. She also may suggest a 2nd week to boot camp if needed.

My main reason for posting is I just don't want to make the problem worse if there is evidence that a certain method can do that. He isn't getting better with the positive only approach and we walk on egg shells around half the time. Again, we will certainly find out more specifics.

Well...I now see my Mom responded to Noble Vestal so I won't address that post except it was very hurtful and not exactly what someone needs when they are searching for support. I didn't realize we needed to LIST everything we've done to step up for Chewie. I'm sure we haven't been perfect but trying EVERY day and it is very hurtful to have a response like that.

Thanks again for all of you that provided responses to help us and Chewie.

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

Laura, You have not failed Chewie. You are asking for help and trying to do what is best for your dog. I am sorry you are having so much trouble with the dog you love. We had a rescue that had so many issues (resource guarding,etc) and I was like you and had no idea where to begin, who to listen to, and what to do. I was expecting a dog like our first lab and got something different altogether. It is overwhelming, but it sounds like you are exploring all avenues to help Chewie. Good luck.

[Laura & Chewie]

Thank you so much, Laurie. This has been so emotional...especially lately. Your kind words mean the world to us! We are and will continue to try and do our best for Chewie. So much of the time he is the best, most loving boy.

[Jennifer Tramell]

I wish I had some magic training formula to give you (do steps A, B, and C, you will end up with result E) however I have never dealt with a dog who shows strong will and dominance in this manner. My dogs have always been very well mannered and trustworthy BUT that is because they have all been medium energy people pleasers. This reminds me of parenting :-) My mom had 2 little girls who were good girls, obedient, and a pleasure to be with (of course, I was one of them - lol). She says that she was ready to write a parenting book. THEN she had my brother - nothing worked, constant challenges, she thought all parenting skills had gone out the window. My sister has 4 sweet, quiet, compliant little girls. I have a wonderful daughter but she is NOT quiet or compliant - lets just say, she keeps me on my toes! There is NO way that I can use the same parenting techniques that my sister uses - my daughter would not respond the same way as her daughters. My son needs different parenting then my daughter - sometimes it's exhausting figuring out what works best for which child!

Chewie is an individual and you guys are individuals. You are trying hard to find the right formula for your situation and you may have to try different techniques until you find what works. I want to encourage you to keep trying whatever makes sense for Chewie. It sounds as though he is very intelligent and needs to be challenged. I'm sure it must be exhausting, but if you find a trainer who can encourage you, give you a jumpstart, and show you ways to offer and win the challenges that Chewie presents, go for it.

One thing I wonder - if Chewie behaves so well for the staff at the daycare, maybe you could watch how they interact with Chewie and see how he responds to them. What if you to a friend and have them compare the daycare interaction with Chewie's interaction with you. Maybe an observer would have helpful insight. I don't know, just a thought. Keep us posted and maybe someone here will get ideas for their own doggie challenges.

[shelly]

That was so sweet Jennifer.. I I love your analogy!

[Linda and Murphy]

Great analogy, Jennifer. I have two, very different sons. Our first we could take anywhere, anytime.
WE thought he was that way because we were such wonderful parents. LOL Then we had our second son.
God has a wonderful sense of humor that I can now appreciate ;-)

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Been there, done that! Thought we were sooo wonderful when our daughter was little; ate humble pie when our first son came along. Then during their teen age years they reversed! We still do some walking on egg shells with the girl!

[Carol and Banjo]

Yep! Had "perfect" twin girls......7 years later my son came along and all HE_ _ broke loose!!!!

[shelly]

Okay... since we're all confessing... here goes... #1 son - worst pregnancy, worst labor... had to leave him in hospital for 10 days... but the MOST wonderful baby and toddler... so easy and wonderful, jolly personality.. fast forward 4 years later... #2 son - (he's the one in most of my pictures),,,Let's just say when my little Italian great-grandmother said the swirl in the back of his hair meant he was going to be a little devil.... she was 100% correct - same parents, same philosophies, gone and replaced... even today! LOL

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Oh I have always wanted to use this analogy and I thought you would all think I was crazier than I already seem. Goodie--I get to use it here.

I have two sons. Son one always needed a long explanation for whatever he was told to do or not to do. He had logic and reasoned everything from a very young age ( way before cognitive and complex thinking should have begun ). My youngest only needed the words--do it NOW or NO. NO. Plan and simple. Cut and dry. If I said anymore, I lost him. We still communicate in this style.

Two kids, same genes, same upbringing.

I now have two dogs. One was easy to train ( except for greeting excitement ), another who needs a entirely different method.

So on to my vet today and what he said about training:

He is often asked what is the best method.

He feels there really isn't a good or bad method it all depends on the owner and his/her dog.

There are many methods out there today. All styles. What matters most is " Are you comfortable with these methods? Is your dog comfortable with the methods? Can you both develop with confidence and a desired result?"

More than likely if you are confident it will relay to your dog.

So going back to children--as a young mother I was told to read all the books. Read them all then throw them OUT! This being said, you have now read and researched a lot of training. You may be as confused as Chewie. So much incoming information. Throw it all out and Pick a method you are comfortable with and stick with it for you and Chewie. It will lesson some of the confusion you will begin to see results.

[Julie Mison]

makes total sense...thanks...very appreciated!