Training....Do We Need A New Group?

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I almost hate to even suggest another new group, but here goes.  After my experiences with Murphy over the past few weeks (and especially this weekend), I've found great advice and support from many of you here on DK.  I've been challenged with Murphy's training for many reasons, and most of those reasons related more to ME than to him.  I can't tell you how helpful it was for me to read your responses to my blog.  I had been feeling pretty bad about the "mistakes" I was making in my training approach, and you helped me get over myself and just move ahead with a renewed enthusiasm.  Last night I was thinking about the fact that there are probably many of us going through similar things.  It might be great if we had a "support group" where we could share our learnings, breakthroughs, frustrations, and just be there to pick each other up during the "training tough times".  There is an obedience group now, but it's for advanced or competition OB experiences.  Clearly, I'm not in that position with Murph.  There's also Puppy Madness, but this feels different to me because this is really all about training.  So, I'm wondering what everyone thinks of this idea.  Is there interest in forming this type of group or do you think the regular forum and blogs are adequate?  Obviously, Adina, your thoughts and ultimate approval are the key here. 

[Adina P]

Sort of....? See my response to Karen above. I am OK with forming a new group for you though too.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Maybe there is a need for a beginner-intermediate group and a more advance group?

[Adina P]

If someone is interested in leading that I'd gladly form that group for them too.

[LG & Sadie]

I think a place to discuss special situations and responses/both canine and human would be wonderful. We find with Sadie certain scenarios can set her up for success or failure-if there was a place to find that kind of information quickly, and get support when things don't go well-or celebrate small victories-it would be fun and productive! As an example; as far as her obedience training Sadie has done extremely well......but......if x,y, or z happen.....and her blood sugar is low.....and then a squirrel crosses your path while walking one had better be prepared. This kind of thing.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Here's what I'm thinking. We form a new group....Training - Experiences, Challenges and Mindsets. The discussions would not be geared toward the traditional training philosophies and techniques. Instead it would be a place for those of us who are facing particular issues that aren't being addressed by the more traditional approaches. It would be a place where we can share our "little and big successes" and gain support and additional insights when we are feeling like we are not making progress. It would be a place where we could go when we're "on our last nerve" and frustration is getting the best of us. It would be a place where together we could celebrate our "breakthroughs". It would be a place where together we could explore how our own "mindset" may be driving or inhibiting our training experience. To me this does feel different than the current Obedience group, and I think it could be helpful to many of us.

[Adina P]

Sounds fine to me =)

And your answer to this won't change anything (I'll still make the group for you), but what do you mean by "traditional training philosophies and techniques" (the only one I'm familiar with is when it's used to describe older methods that use corrections vs. newer methods that use positive reward only). Otherwise there is no 'traditional' training as there are sooooo many techniques and ideas out there.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I shouldn't have used the word traditional. What I'm saying is that the group isn't about getting direction on how to teach the "heel" command (for example). So, it wouldn't get into the various methods associated with teaching that skill. But if someone had a dog like Murph who has learned to heel (and demonstrated consistently that he knows how to do it), but completely loses his "heel", and in fact all control, when he sees another dog, that would be an appropriate discussion for this group. Does that make sense?

[Adina P]

Yes it makes sense. I would argue that it IS in fact an obedience issue since various methods have various ways to train so that regardless of distraction/fear/other-reason-to-not-obey the dog will still obey. Training a dog to obey "heel" in all reasonable circumstances IS part of obedience training...not a separate issue, in my opinion. That's what many refer to as "proofing" obedience...so taking it out into the real world, training the dog to heel whether it's a Bull Mastiff or Pomeranian or horse or squirrel or kids playing ball or skateboarders or cyclists that he spots near or far. That is all part of it in my opinion. I've just started heeling with Boca...and just starting teaching her that when I stop walking she needs to sit. She's at the learning stage. Soon she will understand and show consistency of understanding. I realize I'm leaning on a specific METHOD and philosophy, but even other methods and philosophies generally agree that knowing consistently 'how-to' do something is part of obedience. Learning that it can and should and must be done regardless of (insert distracting thing here) is the other part. But it's ALL obedience training.

The way I look at it. Obedience training is not about 'teaching' alone. It's about the whole thing: teaching and getting control in odd situations. It's ALL of it because that's the only way to achieve a reliably obedient dog.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Absolutely, I think pretty much everything the dog does can fall under the Obedience umbrella. Sometimes though what I'm learning is that it goes beyond "method". I learned so much about proofing with Guinness to get him ready to pass his TDI certification. It months to get him to the point where he would obey all commands regardless of even the most significant distractions. So, I started down the exact same training path with Murph that worked so well with Guinness....and it didn't work. The reasons it didn't work had nothing to do with the training "method" itself. It all had to do with me, and I just didn't realize it. I was nervous with Murphy. I was intimidated by his size, and constantly scared that I wouldn't be able to control him, and he would get away from me and get hurt. I was also "softer" because somewhere in my psyche I was still feeling sorry for him. He was reading all of this, and he was reacting to it.
I'm very lucky that I found a trainer who could help me sort through what was going on with ME before I just gave up or continued to frustrate Murphy. She helped me to understand that even my tone of voice was different when I was handling Guinness versus Murphy. I had no idea, and I really had no idea that a dog could pick up on something so subtle. I'm so much more aware of all these things now....although I readily admit I have a very long way to go. I need to be working on "reinventing" my relationship with Murphy and that will serve as a healthier base for my ongoing obedience training with him. In some ways it's obedience....but not totally.

[Adina P]

I get what you're saying, I hope. That the problem you had with training Murphy was not a method problem (though it may have seemed like it). It was a problem with your mindset and attitude. Personally I still see that as part of obedience, the implementation of the method, if you will. If you're doing it insecurely, with fear, with nervousness, with lack of confidence in you or your dog. "Murpheeeeee, heeeel??" will come across differently than "Murphy. Heel." It WILL come through. Having a goal in mind for a training walk, being mentally prepared to deal with a challenge, walking with a purpose, confident handling, etc. These are all a part of obedience training. It's not just about response rate or consistency or method--though those are the technical parts that will train the dog.

I'm often nervous when starting something new with a dog...it's just my personality. I am afraid I may not do it right. I have off days when the training day seemed like a failure or just sloppy. As trainers/handlers/dog owners...I think that is pretty universal because we're just human. But all of that psych/mental stuff is part of the work of obedience training and something even competition folks have to deal with (cuz nerves play a big role in performance at a big show). The best trainers have a keen eye and sense for how their body language and attitude, etc will influence their dog's learning and response. It's ALL part of obedience training, in my opinion.

What I'm still not clear about is how this group will be different than the Doodle Whisperer group on here and the OB group. Doodle Whisperer group deals with 'issues' and OB deals with obedience...and they both need to acknowledge the handler's state of mind/attitude.

[Adina P]

Ummm...don't mean to be so tough on this idea of a new group. If you had just put in a group request I probably wouldn't have asked so many questions!! LOL
But since we're discussing it....

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Neither of the current definitions of these groups feels like what I'm thinking. That said, the best part of DK is that between the Blogs and the Forum we always have a way to share our thoughts and gain input. I guess that's maybe my best route for now. It will work as long as we tag our discussions with "training" so we can always get back to them to use as a reference.