What do I need to do here?

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Starlit is in the 4th week of intermediate obedience. 
Most is the same as it ever was except expanding our commands out in a large field.  We are working on off leash,  come-sit --finish to a heal.  At home, Starlit does great.  She loves her homework time.  In class--we STINK and are getting worse.  Absolutely look like we have NO idea what we are doing and that we do not practice at home.

We are now out in a huge field and the trainer has added a lot of people to the sidelines.  She also added a few extra dogs who will be going to state trails.  She added a few teenage boys tonight.    Starlit of course is so nervous and distracted.  I was glad she added the buff young man to be on our sidelines-- it is what we are there for in a way.    Of course, Starlit puked. 

Roger is working with Spud in our class too.   For the first two weeks, Roger and Spud were apart from us and Starlit would not stop looking for them.  Last week we were together and the dogs had the commands totally confused by hearing both of our voices.  

I use leave it to get her to stop eating grass, sniffing the other dogs butt, poor greetings etc, and that works.

I would like to teach the Watch Me command or add it to our training so she can keep her focus on me and not The Entire World.    Would that be a good idea?  We are not being taught this but I see other dogs never take their eye off their handler   How do they do this?  Any other ideas.   

[Adina P]

What does your trainer say? That's always my first question when someone is attending a class or being trained by a trainer...just because I'm assuming she/he has given you specific techniques for teaching, using distractions, proofing, correcting, etc and THUS would be the best person to advise on how to address obstacles/problems/issues. Is Starlit ever worked in environments SIMILAR to class or just in the house and the yard? That would make a difference. If she's never worked around other dogs and people that are in close range LIKE in class...then class becomes this HUGE test she never studied for.

I, personally, don't find the 'watch me' command very useful. If the other commands aren't being followed enough so she's focused on you and her task why would 'watch me' suddenly be followed? Maybe someone else has the answer. I guess if my dog isn't heeling or staying...what use is watching me when my dog is supposed to be heeling or staying?

WHEN Starlit does not follow commands there a correction? Does she seem to understand it and then try to get it right next time? Does Starlit get corrected in class when she acts like she's never been trained before? Or if not ... what do you do? Have you been given a protocol for WHAT it is you do when she does go deaf in class? Are you on your own?

Puking sounds to me like more than minor stress or performance anxiety ... but I've never worked with a dog that does that. So I have NO idea what to suggest.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Okay, Roger just told me she* the trainer, showed him how to get Spud to concentrate with a correction/ or with a treat. Both. She must not be doing this with us because Starlit has puked a few times. Poor Starlit. DUh

My trainer wants me to correct more. Says I am a little lax in my corrections and until she is perfect, use corrections. She also says, no treat rewards until it is done Perfect and then and only then she may be treated. That is find with me, I rarely train with treats unless using the Come command. In Starlit's case--it is a must she knows exactly what to do in stressful situations.

Proofing? I don't know this technique by term? Possibly we do this but we don't call it that.

Trainer wants Both Dogs Separated more next week. Complete opposite sides of the field.

As for environments. We do most work in the yard, but have been going to a college campus during the busy day to work on commands and train in stressful and distracting environments. We also use our walks as training. Heck, I think the entire world is training for us right now.

Starlit is a stubborn girl. More of a Lab personality than the poodle to train. Nothing against labs, but they are not as smart and need to be worked with more in my opinion.

The trainer is strict and says I need more corrections but honestly I feel like I spend the entire night correcting.

What I am looking for is more of her concentration.

[Adina P]

Can you clarify what she means by "more" corrections? Does this mean you are letting things slide sometimes when Starlit's 'wrong' or that you are letting her respond 'imperfectly'?

For example, if I say Rosco, Sit and Rosco sits sloppily I can either correct to get a straight sit or let it go because...well..he sat. On the other hand if he doesn't sit at all or takes 45 seconds to move his butt down then I'd be correcting his complete lack of response.

So is the trainer saying that you are not correcting Starlit's lack of response or that you're not demanding a NICE enough of a response? If that makes sense?

And how do you read Starlit? Is going from your training environment to the class a huge jump in difficulty (too big a jump)? And do you think YOUR level of nervousness or stress is higher and transmitting to your handling of Starlit?

[Adina P]

Also when you're not treating her as a reward...how are you letting her know she got it right?

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Praise. She knows my voice of happiness and I give a rub to her chest and back of her ears.
She likes this :) In class, the term used is, " Okay, Now, Praise Your Dog" and everyone does this different. All is acceptable as long as you convey to the dog it did a good thing and correctly.

[Adina P]

And you do this as soon as they got it right?

"Starlit Heel" -- starlit and you start walking and she's in heel and right then you say "Good Dog"?

Or

"Starlit Sit" -- and immediately upon her butt touching the floor you say "Good dog?"

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Interesting you used this example. I asked this last week-- " Is it okay that she sits sloppy?" Starlit usually sits facing me on a heal and not facing forward. I was just glad she sat!! Trainer would prefer that we make them face forward and then drag that butt over but Starlit is VERY SLOW. Almost as if she goes in slow motion. Everyone else has already moved on and there we are--doing the command but in slow motion. I bet it takes a full 10 secs for her butt to hit the ground.

Trainer wants it corrected but I do not have time. Also, she mentioned to me, " it all depends on what I want out of the dog that matters" Obviously, she will never move on to competition, but I do want her attention and I want her to just follow a command so she and I are "safe" in what we have to deal with. So if her butt is crooked--fine is how I saw it. Just sit!

MORE CORRECTIONS: She does say, I still "Ask" Starlit to do things--and it is not a request. So of course I am working on Changing my voice and saying it once. Then correction. That needs improvement. Again, Starlit is Slow. She moves like a turtle.................... Should I correct Slowness? Am I being too patient? I don't know. I'm just glad for now she does it in a duffy way. Maybe that is acceptable.

I think, and the trainer thinks, this was a HUGE jump for her going from class to the outdoors with a lot of added distractions. She even said she was not ready, but I felt doing it twice, if necessary. is what she needs. Kind of like a kid who flunks, that is okay, sometimes twice is what is needed.

I'm not really nervous. I am the type that does get really nervous, but I'm not feeling it now. I just feel behind. There are so many dogs that are worse than we are so I don't feel like the JOKE that stands out.

Possibly, as I read my words, I am slacking and going easy on her again. Gives me something to think about. I really can't be easy on the Slow Stubborn Girl. It really won't do her any good AND she obviously is NOT paying attention.

[Adina P]

I think sloppy sits matter and they don't.
SOME kind of criteria that defines what a sit is and is not MUST be there. Because without a known criteria neither you nor the dog really know when the dog is right/wrong...and then corrections are kind of arbitrary, no? If a sit does not need to be straight ... is it okay 90 degrees off? Can the dog be facing you? What about butt toward you and facing away from you? What about sniffing the ground while sitting? What about barking while sitting?

See what I mean? Without a set of criteria or a specific definition for what sit is/is not...corrections are then arbitrary and the dog doesn't learn much from them.

I also think that it's easier to learn a very specific thing than a general thing. I think "heel" is easier for a dog to obey than "don't pull". Heel is very defined... 'don't pull' is sort of a vague notion.

One way or another you must decide what SIT means and then gradually require closer and closer approximations from Starlit. Not fair to go from 90 degrees to straight...but start moving her in that direction where you correct for larger deviations from ideal and then smaller and smaller till she 'gets' what you are asking of her. Then don't waver from that.

[Adina P]

Here's the OTHER thing about corrections. To be fair they must always occur for the same thing. So you can't 'let her off the hook' at times and demand perfection at other times (except I guess while you are gradually increasing the demand and working her UP TO perfection...so to speak). This is especially important for soft, anxious, or easily confused dogs. It has to be black/white. IF you throw in gray they lose confidence. If sometimes you spelled a word one way and got an A+ and other times you spelled it a different way and got an F...you'd be thoroughly confused by your teacher and wonder HOW you could EVER figure it out. Especially if you did NOT want to get an F. You'd feel helpless and confused.

So when she's wrong...let her know. When she's RIGHT....let her know. But make sure you don't change what's wrong and what's right if you can help it because then your corrections stop being fair.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Well Geesh,
I just talked to Roger. Just now after typing all this. I said, Maybe I am being to easy on Starlit in Training. He smiles and says, Well YES, You certainly are! :)

Thank you for asking these questions. I really don't think I would have thought it WAS ME if you had not asked. Sometimes we just don't get it... and we think it is THE DOG

How much do I owe you for the therapy tonight? : )

I still do wonder about SLOW. If a dog normally acts 10 years old, can you really speed this up?

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Ah HAH!

I just realized something .......
Yeah, Starlit can do these things at home. Not so good at the College. But when I get to class I think... " well do this already girl, you know how" but it is there where she is intentionally stressed, but I expect her to already know how to handle this. I do need to do the corrections there most of all--she needs to know in stress what to do. Okay, I think MY training session was a good one tonight :) I learned something here.

[Kyoko]

Charlie's trainer says "3D's" - Duration, Distance and Distraction. For example, if the dog can sit stay for 15 sec. in the house, 6ft away from you, with no distraction, practice sit stay for 15 sec, 6 ft away from you in the driveway where is more distraction. But not practice sit stay for 30 sec. 10 ft away from you in the drive way. You have to give them a baby step at the time to raise the criteria. And if the dog can't do it, go back like Carol said, because it is too much..... May be Starlit can do the huddle / group hug thing if people are further away in the bigger circle.....possibly not looking at her. Charlie does not like direct eye contact with strangers....makes her nervous.