Need Opinions On A Behavior

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Today I went to see an 18-month-old goldendoodle who has been sitting in a boarding/training facility for more than five weeks. He growled and snapped at some children while he was tethered in his home and at a soccer game, and the owner decided she couldn't take a chance on him biting a child, so she left him with the person who trained him when she first got him and has decided not to bring him home. I don't want to get into that too much, I have a specific question about a behavior I saw when I visited him today.

These trainers mainly work with pitbulls and other dogs with aggression issues, and they seem to fashion themselves after Cesar. They are all young and look very tough, with all kinds of piercings, etc. I know their appearance doesn't have anything to do with their training ability, but...when I have tried to talk to them about the dog's issues and how he would do with another dog in a home, I get things like "Well, my pack keeps him in line", and "any dog will try to establish himself as pack leader", that kind of thing.

Anyway, I was very surprised to see a dog who seemed somewhat fearful around the trainer. They let him out of his cage (it really was a cage) and he came right to me, very friendly. He was a big mush with me, kissing, very excited, very affectionate, a little mouthy but nothing at all resembling aggression. I was sitting on the floor with him when the trainer walked in. The dog moved very close to me. Then the trainer held out a prong collar attached to a leash and called the dog to him. The dog half climbed into my lap and peed on my leg...not much, more like submissive urination. I commented that I thought the dog had peed because he was afraid and the trainer and co-worker said, "Oh no, he does that all the time. He just gets excited."

I have talked to the owner twice and the trainer three times, and no one mentioned submissive peeing before. My question is, do you think this was a response to that trainer and the fact that he was trying to put a collar and leash on him, so the dog thinks he is going to have a training session, or do you believe this is just the way the dog is? My gut says these guys have been using some pretty harsh methods on this dog. That dog clearly did not want to go to this guy. Jack is always thrilled when he sees his leash. I know it's hard to tell from this, but if this is just something the dog does, a prospective owner would need to be told that.

I appreciate any thoughts any of you may have on this.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I really don't know but it seems to me that when you call a dog with a leash in hand the dog would usually eagerly come to you perhaps with a little excited dancing around. The dog would not would not move closer to someone he hardly knew. It does seem more likely that the dog is afraid of the trainer. Luca's trainer was always tougher on him than I was and yet he always eagerly went to her if she used him for an exercise. He never avoided her. Something fishy here.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

The back up bothers me more than not wanting to go to a leash. The dog may not have been walked, gone for a ride in the car, or associate anything good yet with a leash. Even a well adjusted dog who had never seen a leash certainly has no good associations yet with a leash. Even fearful Starlit now dances around a leash but this came from learned behavior and good experiences. She was not always this way.
Submissive urination--even well adjusted dogs do this and I have read many different reasons. Showing respect, bad bladders, excitement pee. What matters most, and the most important thing I see here is what YOU SAW and How You Feel. Trust your judgment and go with your gut. I trust your experiences and your knowledge a lot. You may already know the answer to this question and I think the dog already told you what he was thinking. It may not be this particular trainer, maybe it has fear issues from children.... whatever. But by what you say here, I see an uneasy, unhappy dog, but who associated something Good with you.

Jack and Starlit may not go to a very nice person. Nothing really is wrong with that very nice, dog loving person :) But they come to us. They trust us, have good experiences with us, but are just that type of dog where they are fearful and people earn their trust and respect for whatever reason, they are the way they are. Something about that trainer and something about how he showed happiness with you is a hard one to figure out. I would just have to go back to what you felt at the time.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

.....yes, he did associate something good with you. Maybe he already knew before you did, that you are a loving savior.

[Kyoko]

I totally agree.....Charlie does excitement pee thing when my kids come home, but it is clear that she is sooo happy that they are back. This story made me feel ill.....

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

For me it comes back to knowing the particular dog. The methods they are using may be perfect for most pit bulls, but if this is a sensitive "Doodle", those types of methods can do more harm than good (IMO). If the corrections they have been using have been too harsh, it's no wonder the dog is frightened of the trainer. After everything this poor guy has been through these past five weeks, it's no wonder there's some "submissive" pee. If I had to bet, it would be that given a good, loving, safe "forever home", that behavior would disappear pretty quickly. I know it's not an exact parallel, but I think of Murphy who has been at the Vet's four times this week (and had some very uncomfortable tests), yet yesterday when we went in he went running to her with his tail wagging like crazy. He wasn't afraid of her at all, yet she was the one taking his temp, drawing his blood, extracting his urine, conducting a very uncomfortable test of his eye pressure. He was still so happy to see her, because that's how most Doodles are. I agree with F that there's something going on at this kennel with these trainers to make this poor guy fearful and react the way he did.

[LG & Sadie]

Is there any way he can stay with you until he finds a new home? This doesn't seem right-or feel right in my gut! Poor baby boy Mackie!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

As soon as I finish getting dressed, he's outta there. LOL

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Karen, you're THE BEST! I'll be really interested to hear more about this guy.

[cheryl & oliver]

Oh wow I was hoping that you would go and get this dog...I am not knowledgable enough about different raining methods, but the novice that I am tells me that he was afraid of this trainor, and he knew what was coming...I am so happy that you are getting him to help him....Please let us know what happens today!!!

[Adina P]

It sounds like he has SOME kind of issue that was definitely NOT improved by his stay at this boarding/training facility. Everyone else has covered the possibilities that these trainers were too harsh/unfair in their training. My only other random thought (as I tried to come up with theories without knowing more) was... I wonder if perhaps his trainer encouraged such submissive responses from him. If their goal was largerly related to teaching the dog his low place on the totem pole, it's possible they taught him to simply act lowly and submissive because by his behaving this way they translated his behavior as feedback that he was being trained (when in fact he was just trying to appease them to opt out of either training or corrections). Was he being actively trained for this last 5 week period or simply managed/walked?

In any case I'll be curious to see how he does at your house. It will probably take a while for his true personality to show--in other words his big mush behavior may or may not be indicative of what he's like as part of a family.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

He was walked, and I'm guessing kept on a very strict heel during the walks. I doubt there was much active training other than that going on, because he was very slow to respond to my sit and down commands (with no corrections, he was not leashed at the time) and the pevious owner did not pay for any training beyond the first week or so that he was there. :(

[Adina P]

Oh well then he very likely simply didn't understand what was going on with whatever corrections were going on. If a dog can't heel (due to not being trained to do so) ... and you force him into a strict heel he doesn't get, well he's very likely to be confused and throw out such behaviors of submission because he doesn't really know how he can avoid the corrections.