Opinions please - trainer comments

[Jennifer Tramell]

  My daughter is 11 yrs old and we just joined 4H.  They have a dog obedience class which is 7 wks followed by "graduation" and a dog show.  I thought this would be a great experience for both my daughter, Julianna, and goldendoodle Charlotte.  I believe that working with animals helps children learn self discipline, gentleness, effective communication, and many other traits that are valuable throughout life.  Charlotte is 8 months old and, whereas she is responsive to my commands, she views herself as "one of the kids" and doesn't neccessarily listen to others in the family.  A win-win, I thought.

I have never used a dog trainer before, never taken my dogs to training classes, always did the training myself with success.  I'm not saying that my dogs would win competition obedience contests but they are well mannered, responsive, obedient canine family members.  Last night was the 1st class meeting.  It was no dogs, just a chance to go over what training tools were needed, what would be covered in the class, etc. 

The first thing that got the fur up on the back of my neck was that we are supposed to use a pinch collar (even on a 4 lb poodle).  I am okay with a training/"choke chain" collar but I am a little uneasy about arming a bunch of kids with a pinch collar.  My training philosophy has always been to start with the gentlest method and move up if the dog does not respond.  The idea of sweet Charlotte being snapped with a pinch collar by an 11 yr old just bothers me. 

After I recovered and accepted the pinch collar idea, the trainer said that using a crate is one of the best training tools.  She recommends crating a dog for 2-4 hours prior to a training session.  Says this gives a dog "alone time" and puts the dog in an eager mental state for training.  She is training her corgi for competition obedience shows and he was crated for 4 hours prior to that days training session.  This just floors me......I would think a nice long walk to drain some energy and get the dog paying attention to the leash holder, but crating a puppy for hours?  We haven't had a crate since Charlotte was 3 months old - just didn't work with our situation.

Finally, the trainer made it clear that she did not want parents watching the classes.  This is 4H, a very family oriented organization.  The class is being held in a large arena with plenty of room for parents to sit on top rows and discreetly watch the class without being a distraction.  Charlotte is not Julianna's dog, she is a family dog.  I want to know if I approve of the training, and use the same techniques at home with both Charlotte and Webster.  I also want to see how Julianna and Charlotte interact and how Julianna handles instruction from the teacher.  The 4H agent tried to suggest that in the past parents have watched quietly from the stands and, if a particular parent is a distraction, they are asked to stay out of sight, but the trainer said "I don't want the parents here."  I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, but this really bugs me!  This is MY daughter, MY dog, in a family friendly organization.  I am driving 45 minutes to attend this class and I am supposed to sit in the car? 

Anyway, has anyone heard of these training techniques?  The crate theory?  Any thoughts, opinions, ideas?  Thanks for at least letting me vent!

[marianne giordano]

Hi:  I agree with Allyson and Suzann 100%....get another trainer ASAP.

[Jennifer Tramell]

Yeah!!!  Just got a reply from the 4-H agent who stated emphatically that he agrees with me.  He said to just come on, sit down, and he'll deal with the trainer if there are any issues. 

The trainer came off gruff to the humans but she seems to have a great relationship with her dog.  As long as I can observe, I can see if her "bark is worse than her bite".  I can always pull my daughter from the class if I feel the trainer is handling things inappropriately.  At least I know that I have the support of 4-H and that I AM welcome to observe.

[Carol and Banjo]

Sounds like things will work out for all.   Keep us posted on how classes go.  Your daughter must be excited!  I love seeing kids involved in training.

[Adina P]

Excellent!  When is the next class? I will be eagerly awaiting the results and hope they are good.

[Jennifer Tramell]

First official class is Tuesday evening.  We are looking forward to watching Julianna and Charlotte grow together :-)

[Adrianne Matzkin]

Good for you! You have to be comfortable in any situation where your 2 legged or 4 legged kids are concerned. Sounds like you and your DH have talked it all out and are on the same page. Now that you know that the 4-H agent is in agreement paws are crossed that the class is one that your daughter can learn and be proud of the work that she will accomplish with Charlotte.

Looking forward to reading how the classes go.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with prong collars.  It is much more gentle than a flat collar on an untrained dog.  Mother dogs and puppy siblings often use their teeth to provide corrections.  This is part of animal language, they know that this means enough.  A flat collar can cause immense pressure on the neck and spine when even mild corrections are used.

 

Sure they are seen as the most abusive collars but if you are not an abusive person then there is no fear however if you have an abusive personality it doesn't matter what method the handler uses they will find a way to abuse.

 

Prong collars are often used with positive reinforcement, as you can not train a dog using physical pain.

 

The corrections are not made by the trainer or anyone else other than the handler, it is up to the handler to provide the level of correction needed.

 

Choke collars/slip collars can actually crush the wind pipe.  Harnesses, easy-walk and gentle leaders do not train dogs to walk properly or allow for any type of feedback other than verbal and since dogs do not speak they are ineffective. Yes they may aid in walking untrained dogs but they are not essentially trained while wearing them.

 

It is fashionable now to treat our dogs like humans these days and I see many dogs who behave about as well as the kids in the house!  I see way to many 4 and 2 legged brats these days.

 

I do understand about asking for no parents- parents correcting kids, talking and being disruptive, kids do better without their parents sitting on the sidelines.  How many parents go to school with their kids and sit in the class?  There is a reason they don't!

 

Dogs that get to much exercise prior to training crash and shut down just like kids who don't get enough rest.  I do not agree with crating for up to 4 hours but I do not agree with long walks and being over exerted. 

 

This is coming from a very experienced trainer

[Jennifer Tramell]

Agree about dogs not being humans - I'm trying the prong collar today.  Disagree about the no parents in classrooms.  Parents should be welcome to observe in a classroom - your child's education is your responsibility, not the school's. 

 

[F, Calla & Luca]

I am a big advocate of prong collars and I've written about them many times on DK. When Luca, who is older, was in obedience classes we tried a martingale collar when the flat collar wasn't enough and then went to the prong collar. It was like night and day. It doesn't bother the dogs at all. I've used them ever since and didn't even think twice with Calla. I think they are far more humane than choke collars. I think that quiet, observation should be allowed, however. Good luck with the training.

[Carol Brand]

Make sure you fit the prong collar correctly.  I recommend getting the small linked collar and adding links to make it the right size.  The larger link collars don't give you as many "prongs per inch".  The collar should fit very snugly up under the ears.  It should be so snug that it does not slip lower. 

 

 

 

 

[Jennifer Tramell]

The trainer said to get the smallest linked collar and add links if needed - just like you said.  I wasn't exactly sure how to fit it - the lady at the store said "make sure you can get 2 fingers under it".  I will check the under the ear fit as I think it does slip lower.  We tried it on yesterday and it was getting caught on her regular flat collar so perhaps I need to remove some links.  Thanks so much!

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

Yes, remove the flat collar