Opinions please - trainer comments

[Jennifer Tramell]

  My daughter is 11 yrs old and we just joined 4H.  They have a dog obedience class which is 7 wks followed by "graduation" and a dog show.  I thought this would be a great experience for both my daughter, Julianna, and goldendoodle Charlotte.  I believe that working with animals helps children learn self discipline, gentleness, effective communication, and many other traits that are valuable throughout life.  Charlotte is 8 months old and, whereas she is responsive to my commands, she views herself as "one of the kids" and doesn't neccessarily listen to others in the family.  A win-win, I thought.

I have never used a dog trainer before, never taken my dogs to training classes, always did the training myself with success.  I'm not saying that my dogs would win competition obedience contests but they are well mannered, responsive, obedient canine family members.  Last night was the 1st class meeting.  It was no dogs, just a chance to go over what training tools were needed, what would be covered in the class, etc. 

The first thing that got the fur up on the back of my neck was that we are supposed to use a pinch collar (even on a 4 lb poodle).  I am okay with a training/"choke chain" collar but I am a little uneasy about arming a bunch of kids with a pinch collar.  My training philosophy has always been to start with the gentlest method and move up if the dog does not respond.  The idea of sweet Charlotte being snapped with a pinch collar by an 11 yr old just bothers me. 

After I recovered and accepted the pinch collar idea, the trainer said that using a crate is one of the best training tools.  She recommends crating a dog for 2-4 hours prior to a training session.  Says this gives a dog "alone time" and puts the dog in an eager mental state for training.  She is training her corgi for competition obedience shows and he was crated for 4 hours prior to that days training session.  This just floors me......I would think a nice long walk to drain some energy and get the dog paying attention to the leash holder, but crating a puppy for hours?  We haven't had a crate since Charlotte was 3 months old - just didn't work with our situation.

Finally, the trainer made it clear that she did not want parents watching the classes.  This is 4H, a very family oriented organization.  The class is being held in a large arena with plenty of room for parents to sit on top rows and discreetly watch the class without being a distraction.  Charlotte is not Julianna's dog, she is a family dog.  I want to know if I approve of the training, and use the same techniques at home with both Charlotte and Webster.  I also want to see how Julianna and Charlotte interact and how Julianna handles instruction from the teacher.  The 4H agent tried to suggest that in the past parents have watched quietly from the stands and, if a particular parent is a distraction, they are asked to stay out of sight, but the trainer said "I don't want the parents here."  I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, but this really bugs me!  This is MY daughter, MY dog, in a family friendly organization.  I am driving 45 minutes to attend this class and I am supposed to sit in the car? 

Anyway, has anyone heard of these training techniques?  The crate theory?  Any thoughts, opinions, ideas?  Thanks for at least letting me vent!

[F, Calla & Luca]

Put it on above the flat collar and way up on the neck. You should just be able to get two fingers underneath the collar but it should stay up on the neck. If it's too loose remove a link and try again. I use collars with easy open and close because I find the links hard to work with all the time. Here is a picture of the closure on my collar, I ordered  the collars from Leashes BY Design. If you like the prong collar it might be something to consider.

[Adrienne Shapiro]

Asolutely agree with Noble V...Plus having parents will add distractions which is exactly what the dog comes across in the REAL world and if training doesn't take place in like conditions it is not worth training.  You may want to call in to my trainer's radio show, Jeff Gellman, and ask him your concerns...look it up on his website, then listen live and call in..

www.whatwouldjeffdo.com   Radio show is international..Saturdays, 8-11 A.M. Eastern time.Live on his webcast...

 

I trained my puppy the first day I got her aat 8 weeks with a micro-prong collar...3 trips around the kitchen table  ...now  she heels with no leash and at 55 lbs. uses a regular prong collar....alll the time..for training...it imitates her MOM (now that's ME)

Listen to your guts about Her Personality....

Hope this helps...I'll be listening for you.

[Jennifer Tramell]

Are there any pictures showing the proper fit & placement of the collar?

[F, Calla & Luca]

Here you go:

http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

[Carol Brand]

I love the Leerburg site!  I don't think the "2 fingers" rule is a good one.  I think this will make the collar too loose.  Note, some prong collars come with a quick release that people like.

 

http://www.jjdog.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=jj...

 

[Adina P]

And for very furry dogs or dogs with a lot of loose skin around the neck, sometimes it needs to be a weee bit tighter than you would think.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I did check today. I can just get two fingers under both my doodles prong collars. Yet they ride high on the neck and work like a charm. After all, you don't want undue pressure from the prongs unless the dog is pulling but you do want the collar tight enough to stay where it's placed, Doodle hair helps with the latter.

[Jennifer Tramell]

UPDATE - First class! 
Thanks to everyone for the help with the collar.  The class wasn't terribly organized and I knew enough to go to a volunteer leader and ask her to check the collar.  I told her that I thought the collar might be too loose and asked for her to size it correctly.  We removed a couple links and Julianna and Charlotte took the ring.

Charlotte was nervous and scared and I never would have chosen a pinch collar, however, I think the pressure she felt actually gave her confidence instead of scaring her more - maybe like a parent squeezing a nervous child's hand.  It was only a couple minutes before her posture changed and she was much less skittish. 

The trainer seemed overwhelmed.  There were 30 kids and dogs in the class and I don't think the trainer is accustomed to training kids.  The trainer kept telling the kids not to "bunch up", but they are kids and kids bunch.  She would give instructions and I think she thought the kids would understand the instructions the first time.  It was clear to me that many of the kids were more interested in their dogs, the other kids, and the other kids' dogs rather than what the trainer would say.  The first half of the class was just getting everyone on the same page: getting the volunteer leaders where they needed to be, getting the kids listening to the trainer, walking the same direction, etc.

All that said, I am very happy with the class so far.  It is far from perfect, but what in life is perfect?  I think our kids (and we ourselves) learn more from making an imperfect situation a success then when we succeed because everything is presented without flaw.  I think the trainer and the students will learn how to work together.  The trainer does not "molly-coddle" but she is kind and attentive. 

I was VERY proud of my 2 girls, they showed definite progress in just the first class.  Charlotte started with her tail tucked, barking a little, and dancing around trying to hide and escape.  She ended the class with her tail plumed over her back, a smile on her face, and a prance to her step.  They left the ring and Julianna was happy, Charlotte was happy, mom & dad were happy.  There were 2 LD's and 1 GD (Charlotte) in the ring and they all did well - the 1 LD was even used by the trainer for examples.  Go Doodles!

As a final note, I really don't see how this class can succeed without the parents' attendence.  There are too many kids for the trainer to notice what each child needs to do for improvement.  She didn't notice that Julianna was holding the leash too tight.  She didn't notice that Julianna sat on Charlotte to get her to stay laying down :-0.  My DH & I noticed these things and were able to mention them and to Julianna and ask how we can help her work on those things.  I am excited about this class and look forward to the next one.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Sounds really good!  I'm just so happy that they finally made the decision to allow parents into the class.  You certainly have every reason to be proud of your girls!

[Adrianne Matzkin]

Ditto!

[Adina P]

I'm so glad it wasn't the scary class so many were afraid of.  It does sound like this trainer is not used to working with kids...so either she'll get good at it or decide it's not for her.  30 adults would be a challenge...30 kids sounds mind-boggling to try to train at one time.  I helped lead out a clicker training class for a 4H group a few years ago--it was maybe 12 kids MAX and they didn't all come every week and their parents were with them the whole time.  It was still a HUGE challenge and I was one of two people leading out.  I'm not sure anyone ever really trained their dog because most of them didn't really truly 'care' about the task nor did they practice much at home.  I probably would never do it again. 

 

I giggled at the thought of your daughter sitting on Charlotte...LOL.

 

 

[Jennifer Tramell]

There are 2 adult helpers and 2 4-H senior helpers but still a HUGE class.  At one point the trainer said (in a rather frustrated voice) "You can't all just do YOUR OWN THING!  We have to do this TOGETHER" 

Let's just say that this isn't the extent of training that will be (or has been) done, but it's a good experience.

Oh, and Julianna said that she wasn't "sitting" on Charlotte - just crouching over her (uh-huh, like a rider crouches over the saddle of a horse)  It made me giggle, too.