leash aggression

[Corinna and Krimmi]

Hi guys,

Was really hoping you all would have some input into Krimmi's behaviour. He is now 2.5 yrs old and always been a little odd.  lol  He went to puppy classes for socialization and further obedience training classes, which for me were more to get him used to being around other dogs than anything else because his "over exuberance" with other dogs has always been an issue.

We don't have many friends with dogs that he can play with.  My sis in law has a Min Pin who Krimmi absolutely loves but Rascal does not really want to play with him. He sees my inlaws sheepdog on a semi regular basis and I think he tries to play with her but he does it in such an aggressive "bugging" way that she just ends up chasing him around. (btw, Krimmi thinks that is just great too since he is faster than her) Every once a while he also plays with Golden who is a little bit younger than him and again, they run around but Krimmi has a very aggressive way of trying to play and Charlie usually has enough after a while and lets him know it. It never escalates into a fight or anything just doesn't look like fun playing.  We had 2 dogs previously and they were the bestest of friends.  I am used to seeing roughhousing and play growling and dogs just having fun with each other but Krimmi just doesn't seem to be capable of that. Our neighbours "inherited" an older shitzu and Krimmi always playbows at the fence trying to engage the dog, who is just to old to be bothered lol

But this to me just shows that he is not innately aggressive with other dogs.

 

When I am on walks though, Krimmi lunges, growls, barks and tries to get at every dog we see (not consistently, sometimes I can deter him which makes it even harder since I never know what I am in for)

I have let him try to meet other dogs from the neighborhood but that hasn't gone too well.  He first sniffs but then becomes very aggressive. Obviously I don't want him biting any other dogs, if that is what he would even do. I don't wait to find out.  So i have decided that he will not be meeting other dogs on leashes for everyone's safety.  I know just have to figure out how I can pass by other dogs without him going balistic. He can be excited and looky, that's ok, but not crazy!!!

 I have put him on heel and tried to walk by, tried to make him sit, held him down, pinned him down, corrected him gently, corrected him hard, walked the opposite direction, tried to distract him with food, left the leash loose because i have read that with leash aggression the tight leash signals the dog to be aggressive but nothing seems to work.  Sometimes we actually manage great and I think we finally turned the corner but then next dog, back to the craziness. He can listen really well and our walks otherwise are quite pleasant. I am used to the dirty looks I get from some people thinking I can't control my dog (I guess true on the walks lol) but he has come such a long way in all aspects that I could really use some advice on this.  My 10 year old daughter would love to walk him but I am always scanning around and take the leash from her as soon as I spot another dog.  Not the way I want our walks to be for the next 15 years.

i should also mention that IF I manage to have him pass the other dog without incident when he is on heel and then give him the release command "ok" he jumps up beside me, like head level and I am 6 feet tall, growling and sometimes barking, just for a few seconds but I know it's the aggression he kept under control when we were actually passing the other dog

 

Sorry about the VERY long ramble !!!!

Thanks

Corinna

[Adina P]

Just my two cents:

 

1) Some dogs just aren't meant to play with other dogs.  It seems you were wanting desperately to see him play with other dogs and be something he's not.  I think you have to just take Krimmi for what he is...a great family dog that isn't good with other dogs and shouldn't be put in situations where he can pester them. 

 

2) You mentioned the obedience classes you took him through were more to get him used to being around other dogs.  I think that's a nice 'side effect' of training but should not be the main purpose of training.  For me the main purpose of training is to produce a dog with self-control, who will mind commands in all normal circumstances, and who I can trust off leash.  I'm not that good of a trainer yet so I may never get full off leash reliability...but I think it's a good goal and finding a class or trainer who believes in that and has proven he/she CAN achieve that themselves with their dog is the BEST thing to look for.

 

3) On your walks is it possible to change directions or cross the street to avoid dogs?  I would do THAT most of the time unless you're sure you have a plan of action. 

 

4) It sounds like you've tried all sorts of things but you haven't done anything consistently.  It could be you're not implementing certain techniques correctly (I do things wrong quite often and the results show it!) or that you need better or different techniques or something else is missing in your training.  Training works best when you have an overall plan for everything you do with your dogs...rather than sort of spot fixing "leash aggression" but not working on other things actively.

 

5) If he can manage to heel nicely while you pass other dogs...AWESOME!  I would keep him in heel until the other dog is FAR past and invisible before releasing him.  Maybe even make him do some other work before releasing him.  Heel to a stop, give him a stay command, heel him a few more feet and THEN release him. 

[Adina P]

Another thought I had is perhaps it's the Aussie in him that is contributing this behavior to a degree.  Aussies are herding dogs and he may have just gotten a strong dose of herding genes and maybe that's why he plays the way he does.  It doesn't matter at all when it comes to the 'fix' for this behavior, but it might give you an idea as to WHY if you're curious.  I am just guessing though...and could be wrong.

 

And remember he DOES NOT need to say hello to every dog he passes.  Do you stop to shake hands and meet every person you pass in a day?  Probably not.  So no reason a dog needs to be given a short break in their walk to meet everyone. 

[Corinna and Krimmi]

Thank you Adina,

You are right, I have come to realize that he is just not a dog that plays well with other dogs and I guess that is alright too. :)

As for the training classes, maybe I didn't explain correctly.  Don't get me wrong we both learned a lot there and it was great to be in an environment where he would heel, sit, stay and come without being bothered by the other dogs.  He would be crazy for the first 5 minutes but then settle down and get to work. I know I have become complacent and need to get back to training on a more regular basis.

oh, yes lol, we do cross the road whenever we pass a dog and I try to avoid running into them BUT sometimes it just can't be avoided

You are probably right about consistency I guess I am just trying to figure out what I should stick with but by not being consistent sabotaging my own efforts. 

 

Thanks again for your input :)

[shelly]

I typed my first response, before I read on....

Well looks like WE may even have some of the same (family) traits.  I too, have been very lax with training over the winter.  At least Krimmi participated in his training classes.  tori REFUSED to do anything.  I should have taken THAT as a very strong hint as to her personality.... when we practiced at home, she did everything she was supposed to.   When we went to class... nothing!  I felt like the trainer was saying, 'yeah, right... she does this at home' - LOL

Let's make a deal... we'll BOTH step up on our training this spring!  Just wish I knew what to do - lol

[shelly]

OH, Corinna!  These two are just two peas in a pod!  I wish so much that you were closer... I'd say let these two siblings  teach each other a thing or two.  Tori is not as aggressive as her brother ON leash.  she's more passive and will just lay down or buck up on her hind legs, putting her paw on the leash and refuse to budge on our walks.  since the weather really hasn't been that great yet, I have not attempted to walk yet.  Actually I'm afraid to.  There is a goldendoodle right next door that I would LOVE Tori to play with, but haven't really even spoken to them yet.  I think she'd be ok with dogs.  she seems fine when she goes to the groomer.   I truly believe that some of 'this' is their genes.  Not so much their 'herding' genes, but the parental genes that were passed down.  Tori really has issues with people coming to our house still.... I am looking again for a trainer for this spring.... I feel like I need to go on victoria stillwell's show.  I TRULY know how you feel when yo worry about this being a way of life for the next 15 years.  Other than this (MAJOR issue), Tori is such a joy!  Good luck!  I will definitely be watching for answers here!

[Corinna and Krimmi]

hahaha, yes, I would love to place all blame on the "genes" but I know i have to step up the training alright

He was great when I took him to classes, it's in familiar territory that he looses his mind lol

Actually like I mentioned in my rambling post, our walks are really good, UNLESS we run into another dog

 

but YES, it's a deal, more training for our crazy pups!!!! I will keep you posted on Krimmi's progress and you keep me posted on Tori's

 

BUT they do have bad genes lol!!!   and we love them anyways!!!

[shelly]

LOL... Okaaaaay... you're right!  I tried to 'shelter' her from those mean nasty germs when she was a young pup and probably waited too long to socialize her.  MY fault!  She really truly LOVES people, but doesn't like when they enter or leave our home.  In between, she's lovin' them....back to looking for a good trainer I guess.  Keep me posted!  Loved hearing from you again!  I was looking at Krimmi's updated pics, and I truly can not believe how much they resemble each other - even in his running pic - he has "Tori" written all over him... don't know why it impresses me so much, as they are direct siblings... just not the same litter....  GOOD luck!

:o)

[Adina P]

Don't blame yourself.  It may or may not have made a difference.  Given her response to people coming and going I'd say it it probably would not have.  Some dogs are well socialized and still decide other dogs are pests.

[Corinna and Krimmi]

we'll figure them out yet......right?????  Yes, they do look alike.  It's so cool that we can correspond on these siblings on a regular basis.  DK has been heaven sent!!!!

[Adina P]

What do you mean he only loses his mind in 'familiar' territory.  I see the opposite happening with the 'familiar' being the stuff around him.  He got USED to the dogs in class so he did fine.  But when new dogs (UNfamiliar) pass by he's likely to NOT be so fine.  Essentially you WILL need to use LOTS of unfamiliar dogs in practice...over and over and over again.  But HOW you do this will be determined by whatever trainer you choose to work with.  Wish I knew trainers near you...but I have no recommendations.

[Corinna and Krimmi]

well, i guess  I interpreted it differently .He only saw the dogs in the training class, once a week so I considered them unfamiliar especially since there were always several different dogs doing a make up class etc. and he still did great.  Where we walk, it is pretty much the same route 2x daily and we run into pretty much the same dogs as well.  It's almost like when it's on his turf and with that I mean our neighbourhood, he becomes more aggressive whereas if I walk him somewhere new, I am much more likely to get him to focus on me and pass the other dogs with much less commotion.  I think he's a very insecure dog and maybe relies on me as backup  in unfamiliar circumstances but I am totally guessing if that is what is actually happening.

[Adina P]

Okay, I understand better.  And yes it could be a territorial thing.

I guess in a new place there are so many things to capture his attention and he might be less confident.