'The Dog Whisper's' aka Cesar Milan's dominance method of training

[Nicky, Riley & Boris]

I came across this very interesting in depth examination which is calm and considered with lots of examples.  I think it's worth debating as 'The Dog Whisperer' has world wide publicity and seems to be in the 'Most Popular' celebrity catagory.

Please watch the videos and then post your thoughts.  As a newbie and someone who wants the best for my new Puppy I need to know what you think.

http://www.drsophiayin.com/philosophy/training

 

If you click on the Dominance Controversy it will bring you straight to the videos.

[Carol Brand]

Meh.

I think Dr. Sophia Yin has a product to sell.


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[Adina P]

I have no problem with Cesar other than that what he does isn't typically what is going to train a dog for obedience.  What he does works great for HIM.  I don't think it's really the best way to train a dog to commands--after all he doesn't train dogs to commands and doesn't claim to.  He does his thing and calls it 'dog psychology' with of course it really is not as we barely know about human psychology let alone DOG psychology.  But whatever, it works for him.

 

However, all the debunking of 'dominance theory' to me says NOTHING about whether or not 'all positive' methods work better than 'positive plus corrections/punishment' (and there is a plethora of 'ways' different trainers do it on both ends of the spectrum as well as in between so we really can NOT generalize).  Really when I see major effort being put forth to debunk Cesar Millan I think they are strawmanning the real argument.  Because it's NOT 'positive trainers' vs. Cesar.  Cesar is but a mere speck in the world of training.  They use arguments against alpha rolls and dominance (and such) to be a blanket argument against using corrections in training.  TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUES, I think.

 

I don't think a 'dominance method of training' is even a method of training.  I think it describes nothing.  So Sophia Yin can debunk it and she hasn't debunked anything but the idea that it's good to try to 'dominate' or 'alpha roll' your dog.  Most dogs aren't in need of alpha rolling.  Most of the time the dogs featured on Cesar Millan's show (and even Victoria Stilwell's) are simply woefully untrained.  Their owners have not put in the least amount of effort into training them to even sit on command or have done so half-heartedly with no guidance.  Most of the time they are owners who just kinda stand there and freak out as their dog acts like a crazed lunatic.  They throw their hands up in the air, helplessly, having never read a thing about crates or attended a class or looked into a book about teaching their dog anything.

 

Yet, most of the time dogs are just like kids (and any adult)--they don't mean to be naughty, but they do what comes most easily to them based on what has been permitted in the past.  Dogs have things they want in life and those things are typically more important than pleasing us.  So they will do what they want as long as it works for them. 

 

But I think that's VERY different than the positive solution that if we just can control their resources and reward all their random good behaviors ... then suddenly they will be trained.  I think for the most part that falls short.  We can't control ALL stimuli, ALL external/internal rewards, and sometimes a dog needs to be given a good reason NOT TO.

 

But I also think that the reason most dogs aren't well trained is simply because it's REALLY HARD WORK to do it and more hard work and consistency than most of us are able/willing/have time to give.  I think it's that simple (well and not really having any clear guidance or plan).

 

Someone working their booty off with clicker training and being UBER consistent is gonna get far better results than someone who merely tries to emulate Cesar from a TV SHOW....or even someone who tries to emulate Victoria Stillwell.  Because ultimately it takes more knowledge than can be imparted in a show to get a dog that will RELIABLY  respond to things like "Fluffy SIT!" ... "Fluffy STAY"t ... "Fluffy Heel" ... and "Fluffy COME" anywhere and everywhere on and off leash.

 

To me the ultimate measure of a 'method's' quality and usefulness is whether that method can and does produce off leash reliable dogs who are happy and willing workers for most people and most dogs.  There are few such methods out there that get the job done. Mostly what I see talked about are philosophies and ideologies that make people feel good or bad about themselves and their training.  But what matters to me is: DOES IT WORK?  Can I do it?  And can I accomplish my goals before the dog is too old to disobey? 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Ah, you've finally revealed my secret...JD is simply too old to disobey.

I agree with everything you've said here, but I do like Sophia Yin because she's done a lot of writing that helps to refute and debunk all the wolf nonsense, and that enters into things other than training, like feeding. But she's wrong about that cat scenario. Dogs chase cats for reasons other than "it's fun". Of course, Cesar is wrong, too. The cat was NOT trying to be dominant, and I pray that nobody here takes anything either of them said about that scenario seriously.

The thing that disturbs me about Cesar is that so many people listen to his catch phrases and spout them as a training philosophy without having a real training plan or program, and as you've said many times, you can't take bits and pieces of things and expect to get a well trained dog. If people are going to err in their training ideology, if you will, I'd rather they err on the side that does the least damage to any animals. In this particular debate, I'd have to say that would be Dr. Yin's side.

[Jennifer and Jack]

I am too tired to read this tonight but I am going to tomorrow and get back to you with what I think because this is a very interesting topic to me and I am not a fan of Cesar at all...The reason's I don't think he is practical for the every day training is because like Adina said, most dogs that he goes to have not been trained at all in the least, the owners are lazy or misguided. Sorry that is kind of judgemental

 

I was wondering what you mean Karen about the "wolf nonsense" because I am still learning and I kind of was buying into that theory. Not to only reward good behavior, but that we as their owners are the natural leader and we don't need to get all Cesar on them, we need to set boundaries and rules and make them follow them. One of the books I read that I really liked was Temple Grandin who really feels that dogs are genetically the same as wolves, Do you disagree with that?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Yes, I do disagree, and I also don't think genetics have everything to do with it. We are genetically very similar to apes, after all, and we're descended from them as well. So the fact that dogs are genetically similar to wolves or descended from them doesn't mean they are physiologically or psychologically the same. And in fact, behaviorally, there are huge differences between dogs and wolves. For example, dogs do not hunt or eat cooperatively as wolf packs do.  So it doesn't make sense to me to use wolves' behaviors as a rationale for training dogs.

[Carol Brand]

I might add too that for someone who supposedly uses positive training, she is sure collar popping and yanking that dog around with the "gentle leader". I love that she says, "I little bit of pressure." That is the same amount of pressure the rest of us use when we collar pop our dogs.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Speaking of wolves, what's ironic to me about these two very different theories of dominance and training is that in fact, wolves would respond better to the "postive methods only" kind of training which Dr. Yin espouses than to  Cesar's "pack leader" training, with consequences for not obeying. Wolves learn cognitively and do very poorly with conditioned response training, whereas dogs do poorly at observational learning and respond to "corrections" and operant conditioning much more readily than wolves do.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I should add that I can't see Dr. Yin's videos.

[Nicky, Riley & Boris]

Karen,  I just checked the link and just under the banner at the top is the tag Dominance Controversy.  If you clicked on that and scrolled down and the videos were blank they can sometimes take a couple of moments to load.  They are all on Youtube so if that doesn't work click on youtube Dr Sophia Yin.  Hope that helps becasue they are worth seeing.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I saw the videos, but they just looked like photographs, they weren't blank. However, nothing happened when I clicked on them. It seemed like something was going to happen, but nothing ever did. How long do they take to load?

[Nicky, Riley & Boris]

They are loading immediately for me. Is there an arrow in the center if the picture? If so click on the middle of the picture where the arrow is.   I just had another look and they were working perfectly.  Do you have Adobe flash on your computer, if you do it may need an update? The videos are on You Tube so if all else fails you should be able to find them there. Hope this helps, let me know if you manage to see them.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Nope, no arrow. I'll try You tube.