collar and attention issues

[Heather & Jake]

I need some serious help/tips/advice as I'm so extremely frustrated with Jake not recognizing corrections when he loses his focus and gets distracted on certain collars.  I am able to stay calm during the situation, I'm just fed up with having to deal with it in the first place. 

We started on the gentle leader where he was good until he learned to stiffen his neck rendering corrections useless so we switched to the prong.  On the prong his behavior was pretty much perfect and he responded very well to corrections. We got to the point where I didn't even have to hold his leash just drape it around my neck and walk past dogs, people, bikes, you name it, he's perfect with no pulling and watching me, even if the other dog is flipping out!  I thought he knew his stuff and since we are training for his CGC exam, we could try a collar that wasn't as harsh...  well now I know he only acted so good on a prong is because the corrections "hurt" and not because he learned "I'm not supposed to do this." 

For a week I tried a slip/choke collar to no avail.  He walks great right next to me but we are back to when he sees distractions I cease to exist and he pulls, lunges, barks, and jumps to get over to them almost knocking me over and choking himself to death.  This weekend, I picked up a martingale collar hoping that might work but we are having the same results (with a little less choking) around distractions.

Is there any way to wean them off a stronger correction collar???  I feel so helpless because no matter what I do when he is on a flat, martingale, or choke collar he doesn't care about the corrections and just is single minded to get to whatever he wants to.  He's like a completely different dog and I'm like where did my well behaved boy go?!?  Of course our trainer thinks he will have no problem passing the exam as he acts PERFECTLY in our outdoor class (which is in a very busy location with lots of distractions), so I don't understand why he doesn't act this way all the time... so frustrating when you doodle knows when to show off!!!

 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

My advice would be to put him right back in the prong collar and keep him there.  Different dogs respond to different levels of motivational corrections....but IMO the key is that it MUST BE MOTIVATIONAL.  Clearly the prong collar provided that.  I think collars are all just tools, and different dogs respond differently to these tools.  Murph responds very well to a Gentle Leader, so that's what I use....on every walk where there might be serious distractions so that I COULD have to give a correction.  With the GL, I can turn his head towards me which means he's looking away from the distraction, and with him it works really well.  Guinness is very well trained, but I still use a slip lead on him so that I can give him a little "tweak" if he gets out of heel position.  That's all he needs right now.  Remember, they all just WANT WHAT THEY WANT.  If they think there is no meaningful response to them trying to get what they want, they have no motivation not to try.  It sounds like you've come a long way....I'd just keep up what you were doing with the prong.

[Becka]

Jane, I agree with you about motivations. But correct me if I'm wrong--I thought prong collars weren't allowed during the CGC exam? Heather, are you trying to wean him off the prong b/c of the exam?

 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

You're right...they're not allowed and neither is the Gentle Leader.  I worked Murph to be ready to pass the CGC in a very controlled environment without his GL and he was fine.  It sounds like this is the same with Jake...he can do well in the class setting.  Even after passing the CGC I know that Murph still needs that Gentle Leader on walks where the environment is not controlled....the bike path, the park.  I'm thinking that Jake probably still needs his prong in these situations too....maybe he'll need it indefinitely.

[Mimi Linna, Lilly and Lolly]

no words of advice but it reminds me of my daughter when she was 16 and wanted to drive the car..

[Heather & Jake]

Yes, I do believe I'll have to go back to the prong...sigh. And yes I was trying get off of the prong for the CGC exam... which is this Thursday night!!  I feel he has a really great chance of passing the exam in class, but as you mention Jane, he'll definitely still need the stronger collar outside fo class even after he passes (if he does lol).  I hope that this is also some of his age as he is still only 10.5 months and in the lovely teenage stage.

I saw someone had mentioned in another old post about weaning off a prong collar by turning around some of the links over time?  Does anyone have any more information about that?  Because If I could do that, it would be like a metal martingale once they are all turned over and it would be easier to get him transitioned off of it.  

I just feel so frustrated when he doesn't act the same on the other collars because it makes me feel like he hasn't really learned what to do, but only thinks about what hurts and that's his motivation rather than behaving and pleasing me.  This is the part I want the most help with as you say the collar should be the tool, and not the prime motivation; and ultimately isn't it the goal of training so that they know what to do no matter who's telling them what to do or what collar or leash they are on??  If he's only responding on one type of collar I feel he is not respecting me as his trainer, but respecting the collar.  Or maybe I'm just over thinking this all...

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

No, I don't think you're overthinking it at all....and you raise a great point.  I personally don't think that our dogs are all that motivated by just trying to please us.  Others may disagree, that's just my opinion.  I think they will always need motivation to avoid a distraction that they want REALLY, REALLY BAD.  Yes, they are happy when we're happy...because that's when all the good things happen for them.  But put a squirrel in front of them ripe for the chasing, and I wouldn't trust that they would think "I'm not going to chase that squirrel, cause Mom won't be happy".  But, they might think "I want that squirrel really bad, but I'm not going to chase it because I will get a correction and I'm not too thrilled with those".  Even when I'm working my guys off leash now there is always the threat of a correction.  Guinness is actually fantastic off leash, but I still have his slip lead on and he's dragging it.  That lets him know that if chooses to not respond to my recall, or gets up from a stay, or leaves my side I will grab the lead, correct, and make him do the exercise all over again.  There is rarely a need for corrections with him now, but he is well aware that they could come at any time.  That's his primary motivator, although he knows when he does things "right" he gets tons of praise and attention....and that's also important to him.  The time may come when my guys have had so much training, that compliance is just "second nature" for them....I don't really know, but I'm not going to count on it.  I hope this helps.

[BG and Gavin]

Yes, I beleive that was me.  My trainer advised turning the prongs inside out slowly, one at a time over a period of time to wean them off that collar.  Now having said that, I did not need to do this.  I just ended up going straight to the martingale.  Although if I was going to highly distractable area (like the waterfront walkway where there are tons of people and other dogs and chip trucks and hotdog stands and ducks and birds - well you get the picture), I would definitely have the prong ready for back up.

[Heather & Jake]

Jane- I agree with you completely that they need a reward as something better for motivation and that it is not just to make me happy. I guess I didn't word that exactly right...  I didn't mean pleasing me as the motivation but to actually learn not to pull and that I'm the one who wants the response (not the prong collar) so the type of collar shouldn't matter if I am to display a correction, verbal and/or physical.

 

BG- Any method to turning the prongs around (i.e. start with one every three links, then do every other one, etc.)?  I have read about weaning them off the prong by wearing 2 collars at once (prong and flat) each with a separate leash and hold the leash attached to the flat collar slightly shorter so you give the flat one a correction first and then follow up with a correction on the prong if you get no response.  I am considering trying this but with the martingale instead of a flat, I'm just worried about them getting in the way since they are supposed to sit in the same spot high on the neck.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Exactly, Heather.  In most situations now, both of my guys will actually respond only to a verbal correction (but they also know if they don't, I will use a stronger correction so they do comply).  I'd say now that Guinness responds to only a verbal correction about 90% of the time, and when he doesn't it's because the distraction is just so exciting he decides to play "Russian Roulette".  Murph's response to verbal only corrections is only about 50% right now, but he'll get there too.

[BG and Gavin]

I don't think she gave me specifics, just one here and there as you move forward.

[Adina P]

I agree that if the prong is working, there's no need to rush and get him 'off' the prong.  But a trainer might be able to teach you how to use the choke chain to achieve similar results.  He can be retrained to the choke chain but it takes a slightly different approach to how the correction is implemented because the choke chain itself won't bother him if he just lunges to the end of the line while you're trying desperately to hold on.  He's clearly not past contention on many obedience issues and until he's there--it will be difficult to get him off the prong. 

 

I want to add that it's the RARE dog that will avoid doing things because "I'm not supposed to."  Really!  Those dogs are FEW and FAR between so I wouldn't be down about Jake not being that way.  Dogs are about what makes something worth it for them...and quite often that is about comfort vs. discomfort.  Done correctly they can learn a sort of love of being good and obeying...but that takes some time and skill.

 

Does he get enough praise for doing thing correctly as a contrast to the correction?

 

I wouldn't worry about the CGC if you can put it off.  If you know he varies that much in his behavior off the prong, then he's not ready.  Even if he passed it would be a fluke and he'd be a good test taker but you'd know better than that he can be trusted off the prong.

[Carol Brand]

Well I would say that if you take off the prong and he does not pay attention, then he is not trained yet.   I imagine that if he can not focus in a buckle collar then he is probably not even close to being reliable off-leash.  (This is part of having a trained dog IMHO.) You may be able to control him with the prong, but you are still a long way from having a true working relationship with your dog.  Look... Training takes time.  He is only 10 months old.  What is the rush?

 

On a side note, it used to be that a CGC certification was a good indication of a settled and stable companion dog.  Now, with all the hurry to slap those letters at the end of a dog's name, owners are not taking the necessary time to train methodically and thoroughly.   I lay a big part of the blame at the feet of the evaluators.   I think getting a CGC has gotten simply too easy and I think too many dog are passing who are only marginally trained.