Coming to her name.... sometimes

[Jen & Ember]

Wondering if you might be able to offer some suggestions for me...

Ember is about 4 and a half months, and while she used to do pretty well with recall, it has gotten pretty bad recently. I'm frustrated! I feel like we're starting all over again. :(

 

How did you train your doods for recall? At puppy class we learned a name game w/clicker and gradually over time increased distance and distraction. Unfortunately my house is super tiny, so distance is hard to achieve. 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I really don't think that yelping will work...he won't have a clue what that means.  Stopping the game....it's not a game, it's work and you should not stop until you can end on a successful note.  Turning your back only gives him the impression that he's won...and you are the submissive one who is backing away.  I also worry a little about your saying that he's more obedient when you let him do what he wants.  He needs to learn to do what YOU want...your the boss.  I would go back to the short leash....put him in a sit/stay, and call him.  If he doesn't come...a collar pop and a strong "no"...then bring him to you.  You need to make him come...and then lots of praise and rewards.  Once he is consistent with that, you can move to the long line.  You would always hold one end and he should not be allowed to mouth it.  You need to remember that you need to be the leader...if he doesn't understand that you will likely run into lots of training issues going forward.  Give this a try and please keep us posted on your progress....we really do want to help.

[Adina P]

I think what he meant is that if and when they are playing a game, then 'stopping the game' as a consequence doesn't work for his dog.  I don't think he meant it as training NOT being work.

[Carol Brand]

Ok.  So you have a pushy dog.  He may love you, but he's got your number.  He knows that if he pushes back on you, you will eventually cave in and he will get to do whatever he wants (I teach middle school and this sounds a lot like some kid/parent relationships I know).  You will be doing Amos, yourself and the rest of society a huge favor if you get on top of this and teach him what it means to be a good citizen.

 

I'm sort of a broken record for this type of training, but I think he probably needs a home environment that is highly structured with good boundaries.  Google NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE.  Implement the rules and techniques in your home.

 

Next, I'd put a pinch collar on this guy.  No way would I let a dog this age put his mouth on me. No way I'd let him grab the leash.  Enough is enough.  Fit the collar correctly (see the Leerberg site) and the next time he mouths say THAT'LL DO (or whatever your cease and desist command is).  If he does not stop, give him a hard correction with the collar.  He may yelp, but it will likely be more out of surprise than anything.  

 

Then go forward with this sort of training.  You say SIT and if he does then PRAISE PRAISE TREAT  if not, he gets a collar pop up and back.  The idea with this sort of training is that the responsibility is on the dog to make the choice.  He can comply and be rewarded or he can refuse and have a negative reinforcement.

 

Really though, you probably need a trainer to help you out.  You are likely going to need to by-pass most of the "pet" trainers who use positive only methods (has turning your back and being a tree fixed his problem?)  and find a competition trainer.  Where do you live?

 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'm the last person on earth who should be giving training advice, but I do agree with Carol & Jane that you must gain control of Amos and soon. My guy weighs more than 80 lbs, and although he is what's known as a "soft" dog and doesn't challenge me, if he were allowed to do what he wants instead of what I want, it would be a life-threatening situation for him. I am a small person, but even for a large person, there is no way to physically restrain a full grown Lab or Golden mix who wants to go after something, except for training. My guy once snapped a 15 foot canvas lead attached to a tie-out to go after a squirrel. (and he only weighed 70 lbs at that time.)The pulling force of an 80 lb dog is more than triple his weight. There isn't a dog in the world who hasn't gotten out of a yard or a car or a front door or snapped a leash at least once in his life, and doing what you want in that case will save his life. Trust me on that.

I was looking at your photos of Amos (he is absolutely adorable, BTW) and I noticed that in this photo, the leash looks very taut:

 This almost looks like a retractable leash to me, which should never be used. You have absolutely no control with them. But whether it's a retractable or not, for a leash to be this taut, the dog has to be pulling. A dog who's pulling is walking you, not the other way around.

If you allow a dog of any age to "do what he wants", and adopt a philosophy that he's going to do what he wants no matter what you do, what happens when what he wants to do is a threat to himself or another person? What happens when the object in his mouth is something that will kill him if he swallows it? What happens when it's a small child with whom he behaves "aggressively"? What happens when what he wants is on the other side of a busy street?

For me, it is not an issue of the dog knowing who's boss. I would gladly let him be my boss, lol. I love him that much. But I could not bear for him to get hurt, or to be taken from me and euthanized because he injured someone. The reasons for "not allowing a dog to do this or that" all boils down to responsible dog ownership. Your first responsiblility to your dog is to keep him safe. Training him to do what you want rather than what he wants is absolutely necessary in order to do that. Too many people have tragically learned that the hard way.

I hope you will take the advice of the others who posted here; they know their stuff and will help you live more safely and happily with your Amos.

 

 

[Adina P]

Does he have a solid 'stay'?  He can't mouth the leash if he's in a stay--and stay is the position that 'come' is taught from.  If he breaks the stay then he gets a correction for it. 

 

So let's say he's at the very end of the 15 foot line in a sit stay.  How does he have time to come to you (where the leash handle is in your hand) and grab it away?  I know some trainers who could help you greatly but they just don't happen to be in Utah :/

 

Either way it just sounds to me like you need a good trainer to watch you and help you in real life because sometimes there is some little tweak or difference in the 'correct' way to do something with a dog like yours that is hard to notice/see/advise for in writing when we can't see you work him.

[Carol Brand]

I don't allow my dogs to mouth the leash unless I'm doing it as structure tug time.  (tugging is a form of reward for some dogs and if nothing else you always have the leash to play/reward with).   Does he pick it up when he is dragging it?  If so, I agree with Adina.  Go back to doing short recalls on a 6 foot lead.  If you are holding the end of the line, how can he grab it away from you.  

If he has to drag a line when he is out, I'd use a 20' line.  No way he can pick all of that up!

[Jen & Ember]

Just received this from the leader of Ember's puppy class, thought I'd share...

 

The five rules of recall

1. Never call your dog unless you’re sure you can make it happen.  You’re working to make your recall word a very special word in your dog’s life.   In order to do this it must be paired with a VERY special reward each and every time your dog hears it.  If you call your dog during a time that they are unlikely to respond you are diminishing the value of your recall word by not being able to pair it with a reward.  If you’re in a situation where you need your dog to come to you but aren’t sure you can make it happen go and get them instead of using your recall word. 

 

2.       Only say your recall word once.  Using a cue over and over again diminishes its importance since if your dog hears the cue many times with no reward associated they will begin to dismiss it as irrelevant.

 

3. Give your dog a HUGE reward every time they come to you.  Remember you’re working to make your recall word the best word in your dog’s life so think about the things your dog finds the most rewarding and supply those.  This can be an extra special or large food reward, access to playing with other dogs, a shredded Kleenex thrown into the air.  Think about what your dog gets the most excited over and be prepared to supply those things the moment they come to you, every time they come to you.

             

4.       Never call your dog for something bad.  It is a fact that we often need to get our dogs to come to us so we can do something unpleasant with them such as leave the dog park or trim their nails.  If you need to get your dog for something unpleasant don’t use your recall word instead go and get them or use other words or prompts (such as hand claps or smooches) to get their attention.  Eventually you will be able to use your recall word for all recalls but while we are building your dog’s response to the word it’s important not to pair it with anything negative. 

 

5.       If you call your dog and they don’t come, make it happen!  If you make a mistake and use your recall word in a situation where your dog is too distracted to come you must salvage it by going and getting your dog.  It is important to still reward your dog once you have him since we are working on building the importance of the recall word.

 

RECALL GAMES

Pass the dog game- to play this game will need a friend or family member.  Stand about 8 feet from each other with your friend holding your dog and you prepared with a fabulous reward.  When you’re ready call your dog using your recall word as your friend lets go.  As soon as your dog reaches you grab their collar and give the reward.  Hold onto, praise and reward your dog for a full 15 seconds.  When the 15 seconds are over repeat the exercise this time with you holding your dog and your friend doing the calling and rewarding.  Gradually increase the distance between you and your friend as your dog has success.  If your dog gets distracted while coming to you do whatever you need to get their attention back, clap, whistle or jump around and then decrease your distance or end the game.  Play this game as often as possible and in varied locations. 

Run away recall- You can play this game alone either inside or outside.  Begin with a pocket full of really great and visible treats such as hot dog slices or cheese balls.  Show your dog the reward and then toss it away from you so that they will chase it.  While your dog is chasing and eating the reward run away from them as fast as you can.  Your dog will be attracted to your running away and should follow you.  When you’re sure your dog is headed to you use your recall word then when they get to you grab their collar and give them a big reward.  Throw another treat and begin again. 

 

[Carol Brand]

I think these are all excellent suggestions.  The only thing I will add is that with a young  dog in training, the recall MUST ALWAYS BE DONE ON LEASH OR LONG LINE.    

 

If you call your dog and he does not come and you have to go to get him, this only reenforces that he doesn't have to come to you.  You just taught him that  you will eventually simply come to him.  The ball is in the dog's court and he has little or no responsibility to follow through with what you asked him to do.  Plus, I have seen owners in the unhappy position of chasing their dogs around to try and catch them when they fail to come. This is embarrassing at best and dangerous at worst.

 

I also like to incorporate a collar pop into my recalls.  I still play all the games and reward with treats and praise but when I give the recall command, if my dog doesn't come immediately at at least a brisk trot, then a give a little pop towards myself on the leash.  This reenforces the idea that the recall is not optional.  Then as the dog comes in PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE TREAT!

 

Finally I want to say that before the recall is ever taught, your dog needs to have good attention skills.  This needs to be taught as a separate exercise.  My dogs are cue off the word READY.  When I say READY, they immediately look at my face.

[Ben & Amos Zeeman]

I was looking at collars. Has anyone tried the starmark pro-training collar. It looks like it works similarly to a prong collar, but less likely to puncture skin. 

Amos doesn't mouth strangers, which is good. But I was referring to when he and I are playing, not when we are training. 

The leash he is on is a retractable, with a lock that is usually on. We were in the mountains so I gave him freedom to wander a bit while i sat on the rock to rest.  I'm not the most fit guy, and consequently, he does walk me when I slow down, but when the leash is locked, and we are walking at a normal pace, he is pretty good with loose leash. 

His stay is selective.  Typically if we are doing training games, it is horrible, but when the stay is not inconsequential, he does a pretty good job. For instance, if I have to open the gate and leave the backyard, if I say stay, he will stay inside the gate. Same with the door when I leave the house. But in I say stay, and he sees it seemingly has not purpose, he could care less.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I would really recommend that you get a good trainer to help you.  You will need someone who has experience in dealing with a "pushy dog"....IMO a reward based clicker type of program is not going to give you the results you want. I'm not sure that's what you've been using, but it sort of sounds that way.  My guess is the first thing a trainer will tell you is to get rid of your retractable leash.  The trainer would also recommend the appropriate collar to be used with their individual method.  I know some use prongs, others use training or choke collars. 

You mention that his stay is not good when you're doing "training games".  I'm really not clear on what type of training games you're playing.  A dog should not have the option of deciding whether or not to stay once the command is given.  If you allow him to blow you off on a stay command, he will never become reliable.  A good trainer will be able to show you how to train this command and exactly what you should do when he doesn't obey.  Until you can follow-through and make him do it, I would not even use the command.  It just gives him a chance to practice the inappropriate behavior and I believe it will lessen respect for you as his leader.

I have a very pushy guy myself...strong willed and reactive.  There is no way that I could have managed him without the help of a trainer to actually show me what to do, and I know that he would be totally out of control without all the work that we've done with him.  He knows that training time is serious and that he will be "working".  It is very structured, and with him training "games" only create excitement which is counterproductive.

[Adina P]

It is HIGHLY unlikely for a prong to puncture skin.  And they even make little plastic things you can put on the ends of the prongs to make them less 'pokey' but really because they are evenly distributed and not sharp, you won't injure your dog by using it in training.

 

I guess what he needs work on is for his obedience to be strong regardless of whether HE thinks it is inconsequential.  He needs to learn that when you ask something of him he can trust that doing what you ask is THE VERY BEST thing and in his best interest. 

[K and Racey]

Jen, do you have a recall word? Your original post looks like you are using Embers name as the recall, but your update looks like you are using a recall word.