Socializing Puppies to Other Dogs

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

I get these e-mails from DogProblems.Com all the time and normally just pull them into a folder for a day that I happen to have some extra time to go through them.  This morning however I got one that caught my interest so I quickly read it.  This was not something that I had heard before, so thought I would share he and see what you guys think.  Anyone ever heard of this before.  Didn't seem to make a lot of sense to me as if you followed this guideline, nobody would be going to training or daycare etc.  Thoughts?

Dogproblems.com Dog Training Tips Newsletter

 

 

 

 

IN THIS ISSUE:

 

Should I Socialize My Puppy To Other Dogs

 

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Should I Socialize My Puppy To Other Dogs

 

Dear Adam:

 

I am becoming more and more frustrated at trying
to socialize my young German Shepherd Dog (7 months)

to other dogs and he is a good natured little fella but almost

every dog he meets wants to fight him.

 

To his credit he has responded in a totally bewildered non
aggressive manner but I am getting worried that when his
testicles drop he's going to click all of a sudden and get
his nasty head on.

 

These other dogs seem fine until they meet him. All he wants
to do is play. Is it because he is big that they regard him
as such a threat? Or do I live in a country which is full of
psychopathic dogs as well as people? Thanks, Andy.

 

 

Dear Andy:

 

I believe that it is a mistake to "socialize"
dogs with other dogs outside of the pack, after 8 weeks of
age and before 1 1/2 years of age. Why?

 

Because this is how dog aggression is started. Of course,
there may also be a genetic component, but when a young dog
is dominated-- and then submits-- and the other dog (because
he's mal-tempered) does not back off... your dog has just
learned that submission does not work. So he becomes afraid.
And this fear, combined with testosterone, turns into aggression.
And within the first year of the dog's life, this type of
experience can create a lasting effect on the dog's interactions
with other dogs in the future.

 

Trust me, if your dog was with the litter from 6 to 8 weeks
of age, he went through the primary socialization imprint
stage, and will know how to interact with other dogs later
in life. No. The issue is NOT: Should I socialize my dog? The
issue IS: Should I socialize my dog with OTHER dogs.

 

Here are three proofs:

 

1.) Several dogs I've raised, but we'll take the last two...
a German Shepherd Dog, and a Rottweiler (separately)... were

both socialized with the litter during the 6 to 8 week imprint stage.

After this imprint stage, the Rottweiler was only allowed to
socialize with pack dogs. (Safe dogs owned by my family and
circle of friends that I've know to be temperamentally safe
and not overly dominant.) The German Shepherd Dog was not
allowed to interact with any other dogs. Period. The result:
These dogs BOTH matured into well-adjusted adult dogs with
absolutely no form of dog aggression. In addition, I've
counseled hundreds of clients to do the same thing, and have
experienced the same results.

 

2.) Professional Schutzhund trainer Tom Rose has a habit of
adopting dogs (intentionally) before the 6 to 8 week imprint
stage to other dogs. He DOES NOT want the dog to learn

dominant and subordinate behavior. The result: These dogs grow

up basically NOT having an interest in other dogs. BUT they are
NOT dog aggressive. They behave much in the same way that
humans who don't care about dogs do. After a year of age,
they ARE able to successfully co-exist with other dogs in a
familial setting.

 

3.) Every single case of dog aggression that I see from
clients are a result of dogs that have been "socialized" with
other dogs. And very often, the owners CAN remember THAT

ONE experience at the dog park when, blah, blah, blah. And
surprise! A few months later, the dog starts showing dog
aggression upon maturity. Of course, there may at times be
an element of genetic predisposition to this, too.

 

Best regards,

 

Adam.

 

[Esther and Joey]

You know it's interesting because we started Joey in puppy class with a well known trainer in NYC. She was 16 weeks. Until Joey was 6 months, they offered a trainer supervised puppy play group. The trainer (whom we still work with), did warn us that not all dogs at dog parks are well socialized. He advised that we don't take Joey to the dog park just yet because there are dogs who are actually dog aggressive and their naive owners take their dogs to parks to "socialize" without really addressing the issue. I really enjoyed the trainer supervised play groups because he'll stop, divert bad behavior and he was able to identify situations and activities that shouldn't be practiced. After Joey got too old for supervised play group, we tested the dog park. And he was right - there were some dogs who were REALLY aggressive. It was a little too much for Joey. After that, I started organizing play sessions with dogs in the neighborhood who belonged to responsible owners and were well adjusted dogs. At 9 months, Joey can now go to dog parks. In fact, I take her daily. I also have been to several to find ones with the most responsible dogs and owners.

I'm not sure if I'd go through the extend this man is suggesting. But from my limited experience, I do find that not all dog runs are equal and not all adult dogs are well behaved and I would be cautious and picky about who Joey plays with.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I agree with some of this, but he takes it a little far for me.  I personally have avoided any situations with "uncontrolled" play or socialization with my guys.  In any of the training we've done, there has been no actual "free play"....just work.  We don't do dog parks because I don't know the other dogs.  My neighbor has two dogs (both untrained with no manners whatsoever), and although she has tried to set up "play dates" I always refuse....I don't want my guys around that kind of energy.  G & M go to Daycare, but even though there are a lot of dogs there, the owner carefully screens them.  The owner and several staff members supervise the room at all times, and there are no dominant behaviors allowed.  There is a "time out area", where dogs are sent to "cool off" if they notice any behaviors that they don't like.  I've spent lots of time observing on tape, and I'm amazed at how well mannered all these dogs are....they do act like a pack.  Murph is not dog aggressive, but he is reactive with some dogs when he's on leash.  I've tried to go back and think about whether he's ever been in a situation like Adam describes above, and I really can't think of any.  It's possible that there was an incident before he came to me, but who knows.  I am a DogProblems.com subscriber, and I usually value Adam's take on things, but this time I'm on the fence.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

"Because this is how dog aggression is started. Of course,
there may also be a genetic component, but when a young dog
is dominated-- and then submits-- and the other dog (because
he's mal-tempered) does not back off... your dog has just
learned that submission does not work."

This is exactly what happened to Jackdoodle. He was a little uncertain and submissive around other dogs and there was never a problem. Then he submitted to a very dominant female Shih Tzu who did not back off and bit him. It happened twice and ever since then, he has been very reactive with strange dogs when he is on-leash. When off-leash, on neutral territory at dog parks, etc., he ignores all other dogs.
Dogs have to get along with other dogs that they meet at vet offices, stores, groomers, etc. They do not have to "socialize" with them, IMO. Once most dogs get past 2 years old, there is really not much desire to "play" with other dogs. (This does not of course extend to dogs in their own households.)

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

Yes, I have heard of this approach too. I think Ed Frawley of Leerburg Kennels is a big advocate of puppies/dogs only socializing with members of their own packs. He makes the point that  dog type animals in the wild do not seek out members of other packs to "play" with them.  Having had a dog aggressive dog in the past caused me to be more cautious with what dogs I allowed Tara to socialize with as a pup. The dog that I had usually showed no sign of aggression toward another dog until it was right in front of him at which time all hell would break loose. So I know it is not always possible to spot aggressive dogs from a distance.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

All I have to say is hmmmmm.... interesting.  Personally I think some dogs are more aggressive than others.  Perhaps early socialization or lack there of makes a difference, but I think, like humans, individual dogs are wired to be a certain way and training/guidance can only encourage desired behavior. I don't think you can prevent behaviors (i.e. aggression in dogs who wouldn't be aggressive anyway) and I don't think there is a way to prove one way or another that you have prevented a behavior from occurring. 

[Adina P]

I think it is the manner in which people 'socialize' their dogs that is a HUGE part of the issue.  The whole idea of "hey we have a new puppy dog...that means we should probably take him to a place with a bunch of dogs we don't know and expect him to PLAY with them and learn to cope with whatever the unknown dogs throw at him and let him also behave in any way!"  And then we expect dogs that get these unguided free-for-alls to be polite when they pass other dogs. 

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I think you might be correct, Adina.