Hunter's vet suggested food change and I am confused - I posted in the main discussions originally...

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

I had posted in the main forum this morning after taking Hunter to the vet in a panic.. Here is the gist of that post......and what the vet said.


"I am home, feeling like a moron for my total state of panic LOL  It wasn't major but I am very glad I went right away.  It was actually two different things.  The vet said she had cut her lip, possibly on a bone right by her upper canine tooth and it was infected, that's what the lump was and it was swelled.  She also had a lot of irritation on her lips and the vet is thinking it is an allergy to possibly something she is eating, outside, the ongoing mystery of an allergy.  Hunter is generally an itchy dog to begin.  Her food has been Canidae All Life Stages and the vet pointed out that it has a lot of ingredients, nothing bad but just a lot.  She said she has had a lot of success with California Natural kangaroo & red lentil (kangaroo was a little strange but I try to be open).  She compared and went over the ingredients with me in both the Canidae and California Natural and I am going to switch, like the vet said it more erring on the side of caution.  For the irritation on her mouth and some going onto her chin she told me to wash and rinse her chin/face with Cetaphil or Phisoderm.  Stay away from any people food but she can have pea's, in the California Natural.  She also put her on Zyrtec 10mg once a day to see if we can get it all under control.  She cleaned her infection and gave her an antibiotic for 7 days.  Wheeew.....  Overall I was very happy with the vet visit.  Only time will tell if the food and Zyrtec helps the itching and cleaning her with Cetaphil.  
Has anyone else received these suggestions before?  I have to say this is the first time I have been to the vet's "new" office.  Before she was in an office with another vet that I went to and I was not at all thrilled with that office except for the new vet they brought in.  From the local gossip the nice, younger vet didn't agree with the so/so vet on her nutritional recommendations and courses of treatment and left to open her own practice.  I have to say in her office she had literature on ALL the brands that are discussed in the Food Group, none of the Bill Jack/Science Diet crap and she did not have one Purina poster anywhere.  She didn't sell any food either but she had EPO supplements.  It was like being in a DK vet office LOL"

I had my own doubts about the Canidae and Hunters itching for quite a awhile now. She also takes 1500mg of EPO a day. Karen suggested I post the ingredients for both the Canidae ALS and the California Naturals Kangaroo & Red Lentil to investigate if there is a better option. I did start her on the Zyrtec today to so I can get her feeling better.

I had a hard time finding more info on the California Natural than on there website, the Canidae info is from the dog food reviews site....



Canidae All Life Stages

Feeding guideline:
A 50lb dog should be fed 2 cups


Calculated Caloric Content
ME (kcal/kg) 4125
ME (kcal/g) 4.13
ME (kcal/lb) 1875
ME (kcal/cup) 468


Ingredients
Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran, peas, potatoes, oatmeal, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), millet, tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed meal, ocean fish meal, choline chloride, sun cured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, dried bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation solubles, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, organic selenium, papaya, pineapple.


Guaranteed Analysis 
Crude Protein (min.) 24.00% 
Crude Fat (min.) 14.50% 
Crude Fiber (max.) 4.00% 
Moisture (max.) 10.00% 
Lenoleic Acid (Omega 6) (min.) 3.70% 
Calcium (min.) 1.20% 
Phosphorus (min.) 0.90% 
Vitamin E (min.) 200.00 IU/kg 
Alpha Linolenic Acid (Omega 3)* (min.) 0.50% 
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) (min.) 50.00 mg/kg 
Lactobacillus Acidophilus* (min.) 100 million CFU/lb. 
Cellulase* (a) (min.) 100 CMCU/kg 

California Natural Kangaroo & Red Lentil

Nutritional Solutions – Pure & Simple
Pure and simple nutrition just got even better. As the first company to create a dry pet food without grains, Natura is now bringing even more options to pet parents with our California Natural grain free varieties.

California Natural Grain Free Kangaroo & Red Lentils Formula Adult Dry Dog Food is carefully made with ingredients that are specifically selected to be tasty, easy to digest, nutrient-rich and grain free.

Kangaroo is used as the single animal protein source, providing an uncommon protein option for dogs who cannot tolerate typical pet food choices. Red and green lentils and peas are included to provide unique carbohydrate sources with low glycemic indexes, along with sunflower oil and flaxseed which supply essential omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids for skin and coat health. The formula is grain free and potato free, making it a great option for pets who do better on a limited ingredient diet.

Ingredients
Kangaroo
Red Lentils
Green Lentils
Peas
Sunflower Oil (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Source of Vitamin E)
Flaxseed
Pea Fiber
Dicalcium Phosphate
Natural Flavors
Calcium Carbonate
Salt
DL-Methionine
Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate)
Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Betaine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Folic Acid)


I hope this helps with some direction....

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'm not sure which dog food review site you used, the dog food analysis site has not been active for sveral years and their info is not correct. But here's the thing: IF (and that's a BIG if) Hunter is allergic to something in her current food, it would be chicken, turkey or lamb, and then possibly (but much less likely) one of the grains, either rice, oats or barley. So all you need to do is choose a grain-free food with a different protein source. A salmon or duck based formula, or beef, pork, venison, bison, or any combination of those. There are lots of choices. If you like Canidae, you may want to look at their new Pure line. TOTW has the bison/venison formula. Orijen has the Red formula and the 6 Fish formula. And there are many others.

Whichever you choose, it will take 8-12 weeks to see any improvement in the itching, IF in fact Hunter does have a food allergy, and the odds are against that. You will also have to make sure she doesn't get any treats that contain grains, chicken, lamb or turkey. And even then you may not see any difference if she doesn't have an allegy to something in her food. It's very frustrating.

There's nothing wrong with the CN Kangaroo formula, either. For me, it was a question of wanting a higher protein level, and I couldn't add protein because I could only choose one protein for him, and I can't buy kangaroo meat to add. I also wanted a better source of fatty acids. You have more leeway, though. If you go with the Kangaroo diet, you could still give Hunter other proteins she hasn't had, like duck or beef. And she's been eating a food with a lower protein percentage, at 24%. The CN Kangaroo formula is about 26% protein, I believe. JD was on 40% protein, so that was an issue for me.

[Sherri, Sophie, Winston, & Kitty]

Karen, the Taste of the Wild bison venison formula also has lamb in it. At least that's what I see on the website. I looked it up as an option but because of the lamb I can't use it for Winston. Too many porteins for a food trial right?

I think if I could go back I would have started the venison and sweet potato by Natural Balance for the trial. Mostly because it's more affordable, at $108 per bag which only lasts 3.5 weeks (and that's assuming they have the big bags in stock, which is about 50-50), it's just too expensive.

Food trails are really really really hard and frustrating. It is so hard to avoid him getting into anything, especially when I have a second dog. I want to do training work with Sophie and give her treats and Winnie gets in the way and looks at me with those big eyes wanting some too. It's hard. It's hard when people out in public want to give him a treat, or the vet tech slips him one without thinking. And then we're back to square one, and all that extra money spent on expensive kangaroo kibble was wasted. I don't mean to discourage you Denise, it's just that it's really tough, and you have to be vigilent so you need to gear up mentally to do it.

Denise, if you really want to find out if she has allergies you might want to see a dermatologist. I did, and after doing intra-dermal sking testing with Winston I determined he is allergic to cats, dust mites, pigweed pollen, yeast, and feathers. Now I can take concrete measures to help him while still continuing the food trial to determine if there are any food issues.

The thing is, now that I know he's allergic to the kitty, I'm weary of just how much I am able to tell if the food trial is working. Once I start reintroducing other stuff, how do I know he's not reacting to her? Dust I can control to a certain extent, the feathers are out of the equation, his yeast infection is cleared up, and there is no pigweed pollen in the environment right now. But there is still the kitty, and she's shedding like crazy lately and I can tell it is affecting him. I almost feel like there is no sense worrying about the food until I do the allergy shots to improve his immunity to the environmental stuff.

Denise, sorry I am making this discussion about me. What I want to say is that if Hunter has allergies, I would start with a dermatologies, and see if she/he recommends skin testing, then take it from there. It is a long haul, and super expensive, but it is better in the long run. Does Hunter have any other symptoms, like scratching her ears, licking herself, chewing on her paws? or is it just around her mouth? Because it could be just a bacterial infection rather than allergies. Did the vet take any scrapings or anything like that?

also, what is Zyrtec?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Zyrtec is an antihistamine, one of the best ones for dogs with Atopic Dermatitis. The generic is cetirizine.

I'm glad you posted this, because it points out the problems with food trials. They are a huge pain,and you have to be really committed, plus you're going to be putting your dog through some changes; so you have to be pretty sure that food is the problem, and since it only is in 10% of the cases of any allergies in dogs, it's not the first thing I would look at.

In Hunter's case, there is some itchiness, but unless she is biting, licking or chewing at herself enough to cause hair loss and skin infections, you handle it with frequent baths, no "hair products", no hot dryers,  wiping them down, keeping the house as clean and dust free as possible, changing furnace filters frequently, washing bedding and bowls often, going with a grain-free food, and using EFAs, topical cortisone sprays, and antihistamines. The rule of thumb is that if the dog has symptoms requiring medication more than 4 months of the year, (and that includes skin or ear infections) and/or the dog has periods of such extreme discomfort that they are injuring themselves, you consult a dermatologist. Sometimes it pays to see a dermatologist even for milder cases, because they may have suggestions for antihistamines and other supplements that will help.

Seasonal allergy patterns are easier to judge, because obviously, if the food was to blame, the dog would have symptoms year round and would not have better and worse periods. But if the dog does have symptoms all year round, that still might mean indoor inhalant allergens like dust mites, molds, cat hair, storage mites, or it might mean food. To me, since the chances that it is food are so much less than the chance that it's something else, I would look to inhalant allergies first. Then you have to go with how uncomfortable the dog is.

There is also a "reverse" food trial which involves eliminating the likeliest culprits first. In Hunter's case, if she did have a food allergy and I had to bet money as to what food she is allergic to, I would choose chicken, since statistically that's the one most often seen out of the foods she's currently eating. So I'd try just eliminating poultry, which is relatively easy, and see if that helped at all.

 

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

I have a lot of experience with enviromental allergies because of my younger daughter.  Fortunately, I already use an air purifier, the furnace filters, batteling of the dustmites, etc.  You are soooo right about allergies being a total trial and error for the most part.  My daughter is currently doing immunotherapy and getting 2 injections a week, we are 6 1/2 months into a 12 months of once a week and then they will taper down.  I have food allergies but only to treenuts and cross contimamination are more of an issue to me than the elimination process.  I have noticed there is a huge difference it appears in dogs with food allergies than people with food allergies which intrigues me but makes total sense when you say only 10% of dogs have a true food allergy. 

When I think about it you are right that it seems to be more in the winter than in the spring and summer months.  So not year round that at true food allergy could be considered.  Until now I have up'd her EPO to 1500mg in the winter and the summer 1000mg.  Probably a good sign that after taking the Zyrtec yesterday and today I do notice a tad bit of a difference.

I am going to check out the other Canidae formulas and run them past you guys to see what you think before I make that switch.   I am going to steer clear of chicken and I want something with overall less ingrediants.  The only bone's Hunter ever eats are raw lamb legs and she has ate them since she was a puppy.  She hardly ever gets treats, other than my DH's habit with her but I am working on that with him :-)  The vet also said that Hunter was a bit overweight at 65lbs and could stand to loose 5-7lbs.  She has always chunked up in the winter in the past and she swims a ton in the summer so that will hopefully help.

Sherry, she chews her paws sometimes, probably more than what I would think would be normal. She has three spots that she scratches frequently - her chin, behind her right ear and her right side under her belly.  She has never scratched to the point she has lost fur.  She has had some weapy rashes on her back inside legs before but I did figure out that was due to certains shampoo's.  Thinking about that and more frequent bathing - what do you use or would you recommend for a very mild, nondrying shampoo?  When I take her to the groomers I normally don't have them bath her, if I do I bring my own shampoo and my most recent groomer would cut her first for me and then bath her so I could pick her up wet and she wouldn't have to go under the dryer.  I am looking for a new groomer now though.... now that I am thinking about it I might stick with the one I have and deal with her so/so job only because she does what I ask and she is nice.... 

 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I use Douxo Calming shampoo for JD; I order it online. The trick to using allergy shampoos is that you have to leave the lather on them for at least 10 minutes before rinsing. I was also using another good one, Relief, with colloidal oatmeal, but that's been discontinued. Jack's groomer will let him air-dry or use a cool dryer.

If you don't think grains are a problem for Hunter, check out Wellness Simple Solutions formulas. Also, Acana just brought out some new limited ingredient formulas. The only grain they contain is steel-cut oats.

[Sherri, Sophie, Winston, & Kitty]

I can't get Duoxo in Canada without a prescription and it is like $40/bottle. Instead, I mixed a little hydrocortisone cream in his oatmeal based shampoo. But that being said, I am using Hexaderme, an antibacterial shampoo now since Winnie has an infection that just won't die. :(

I find I need to bath him once a week. That usually relieves his itching quite a bit.

Based on what you describe, it does sound like environmental allergies to me. Winnie scratches all the same places. I would consider the dermatologist. Once you find out what she is allergic to it will make a big difference, and, if she's not allergic to anything in the environmen then you know it's food...